Down The Aisle? Why Even Bother?

[Guest chibi4president]

Nothing against all you happily married people, but I've noticed something that's really off-putting. People who are against gay marriage talk about destroying the sanctity of marriage, when in truth gays getting married is not the problem. Heteros are doing a perfectly good job of screwing up the institution of marriage. It's pitiful. The divorce rate in the US is 50% of all couples (and growing).

My question is, why even bother? If there's a 50 percent chance that it may not work out, why get married at all? Why can't we just abolish marriage altogether and have everybody just live together until they get tired of each other? Then they can just split without even having to hire a lawyer! As for the kids, there's plenty of illegitimate kids out there already, and they turn out just fine! I mean, look at me!

If that's not bad enough, you hear about celebrities and other folks spending thousands, even millions, on weddings. Seems like they only want to get married to have a wedding. People go into debt to pay for thousand-dollar weddings. There was one middle-class couple who spent $10,000--on their pictures! Just their pictures! That's half my college tuition! All that money--for one day? That's consumerism at its WORST!

Celebs take all the fun, novelty, and dignity out of marriage. Britney Spears had a...55-hour marriage? Star Jones had an elaborate wedding--and got everything for free?

Maybe I'm just bitter because my parents are divorced. But the truth is, marriage has long lost its appeal for me. If for some God-forsaken reason I do decide to marry, I'll just skip the wedding and do Vegas. And on the way, we can sign the prenup booklet.

Family may not like it, though...I can see it now...

Mom: weeping soundly* But I was looking forward to your wedding...I wanted to help you pick your wedding dress! I wanted to sit on the front pew and cry! I wanted to park in the reserved "Mother of the Bride" spot at the church! I wanted to eat wedding cake! Why?

Chibi: Mom, you can not talk. You and Dad had a ghetto-shotgun wedding in a smokehouse. With fried chicken and pound cake. And what church?

Good thing I have a sense of humor...I'll need it.

[Guest lightgoddess]

Thank you chibi! I have been using this same arguement to shut these religious freaks up since the whole gay marriage thing started. It's also fun to get an uber-fundie started and all revved up for a religious debate about gay marriage (especially someone in their mid to late 40's and older) and ask something logical like, "What's the difference between a gay couple wanting to be able to collect their partner's retirement in the event of their death and a black man in the 1960's wanting to sit at the front of the bus?" If they remember the civil rights movement, they pause or start spluttering about the Bible and the sanctity of marriage.

Personally, I don't care if they call it a marriage, a legal partnership, or a union. I do believe that if a gay couple wants to have the state recognize their union, there should be a way, simply for leagal reasons. As a married woman, since my husband does not have a living will, were something tragic to happen to him, as his next of kin, I could decide to pull the plug, and then after he's gone, draw his retirement. He could also do the same for me. A gay couple without the proper legal paperwork could not do this.

It's just a case of history repeating itself. In this instance, though, instead of the black people wanting equal rights and better facilities, it's another, rather quiet segment of the population simply wanting legal recognition. It's just too bad that here in Arkansas their spokespeople aren't as charismatic as MLK Jr. Those two guys from Conway kind of scare me. lol

[NightScribe]

I've thought about what "legally wed" really means. I sit and ponder these things from time to time. I mean let's go back in time shall we?

I believe that marriage was instituted as a means to protect the property (land, chattal, etc) of the man who owned it. That is to say, his rightful heir(s) were to inherit the goods. How to make sure that happened? Well, let's have a ceremony that is recognized by whatever powers that be. That way, only the off-spring produced through that legally recognized union can inherit, not the *ahem* bastard love child/children that might have been sired. And the custom stuck and when the church got involved it turned into something more, with the idea of "uniting the lives/souls" of two people.

I think part of my theory has been validated on some program I was watching a while back. I've got nothing against marriage (but I'm not crazy enough to have done it yet and if I do, one word: ELOPE).

If gay people want to marry, let them. Some may not understand or necessarily agree with that, I really don't want to call it, "lifestyle" isn't really the right word, but come on. We need more happiness and contentment in the world. Why deny anyone that? And there's plenty of people who don't marry (I'm referring to heteros now) who have been together for like twenty years and they're perfectly happy. If they don't want to marry, let them be as well.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

A)I think divorce is a GOOD thing. It keeps people who HATE eachother from trapping eachother. I think the reason the divorce rate is going up is that people are realizing that they don't want to be like the generations before them who were largly trapped in marriages they didn't want to be in. You also have the folks who like to ABUSE the divorce system... ugh.

And, dude, you don't always need to hire a lawyer for divorce proceedings. That's what prenuptial agreemants are for. I don't know why so many people are so stupid about this.

Wedding ceremonies, in my opinion, cheapen the act of marriage. Why the shit do I need to pay thousands of dollars, by a dress I'll likely never wear again, and have this huge ceremony just to prove I'm willing to make a commitmant to someone?

C) How the hell do two people of age of consent who are madly in love with each other hurt marriage? If anyone tries to bring up to dog argumant so help me...

D) Marriage is an economical thing. That's why you get tax brakes and health benifits when you get married. Politicians pretty much figure that a couple who stay together for over 10 years are more likely to have more kids who will actually become working member of society. Yeah, I'm laughing at that one there.

See, this is why the only reason I'll get married will be for the taxes. It's like, I'm fully committed to the relationship I'm in. Might have a party or something in celebrationg of new tax brake, but it won't really mean anything. I love him, want to kick him in the head half the time, but I love him. Ain't that what a marriage is about.

Edit: Of course, this does not stop my best friend from planning my wedding I escape the wedding crazed mom JUST to SLAM into the wedding crazed BFF. :: stabs ::

[Guest lightgoddess]

Pix, don't be disillusioned by tax breaks if you are married. I've been married almost six years, and I assure you, unless you have a bunch of kids, the more money you make, the more Uncle Sam dips into your pocket. My husband and I actually dodged a bullet this year with our taxes because we claimed a couple of dependants. We had to. Without the dependants, we were looking at OWING the gov't close to $1000. Instead, we got back like $60. And, no, what we did was not illegal because the people that we claimed, we take care of and our accountant actually made the suggestion. And, we don't make that much, either.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Ugh...

[Guest Mike256bit]

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but marriage is somewhat of an incentive to bear children for the growth of the nation. Marriage benefits increase when you (as noted) can claim some bouncy, delicious little dependents. The government wants the incoming work (and military) force to grow, and couples are likely to raise said children when they're married and can benefit from it (I know, it sounds very clinical and any humans out there will diagree with the assessment). As it is, gay folk can't bear children without a third party, so the people who founded the institution of marriage see no real worth to a gay marriage.

It sucks.

And, yeah, eff the sanctity -- the divorce rate is evidence enough that marriage has been cheapened.

[redsliver]

The divorce rate has skyrocketed as the average human lifespan has doubled... coincidence?

I grew up surrounded by frothing at the mouth Catholics, and in spite of my boundless hate for religion, I think there is something to marriage. To get married is to say "I love you and I don't believe I'll be able to love anyone more than you ever." Now, few people can see how they'll feel in fifty years, but that statement definitely holds some weight with many people. Therefore if two people love each other and want to make that statement, who are we to stop them?

[Iggy_lovechild]

I'm feeling apathetic about this topic today. Marriage is no longer an institution or really all that important in this modern age. Without doweries and virginity, it's just another overrated part of life that society wants you to buy into (like Britney Spears and slim thighs). Yes, I understand the tax breaks, but by reading this thread I now understand that it only matters if you wish to have children.

I have never been interested in breeding.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

I'm feeling apathetic about this topic today. Marriage is no longer an institution or really all that important in this modern age. Without doweries and virginity, it's just another overrated part of life that society wants you to buy into (like Britney Spears and slim thighs). Yes, I understand the tax breaks, but by reading this thread I now understand that it only matters if you wish to have children.

I have never been interested in breeding.

Pretty much.

And about breeding... ugh...

I never wanted children until fairly recently.

This is all my boyfriend's fault. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure I'd be breeding littl crimes against humanity over here. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing...

[StoryJunkie]

That way, if the guy died with no legitimate heirs, his estate went to the Catholic church

It can't go to the church unless it was willed to the church. You've been fed a load of crap. Infact I think someone's been making you wanna hate the church, since in the past couple of times you've brought it up, your vociferous voice has rankled me.

The Church gets a tax break, so the property doesn't go to the government, so then the people who actually spend their tithe on the church for (not property) but to FEED the HUNGRY and CLOTHE the POOR, which some churches ACTUALLY STILL DO, I'd shut up about it if I were you. You're pissin me off, so grab a brain before you realize I'm Catholic and I'm resenting your words

*hand hovers over gun in holster*

[Guest Evil_Labs]

I would say Marriage is meant to also be used as a method for showing your commitment and devotion to your love interest. It carries more mean in most contexts to say 'my husband' or 'my wife' rather than 'my boyfriend' or 'my girlfriend.' However, a lot of people really seem to get into marriage without thinking about the long term ramifications, and a lot of people don't seem to want to try and work differences out, instead taking digs at each other whenever possible. It is an old concept, but it has its purposes.

I agree marriage is an institution. The institution in and of itself is not the problem. The people involved in the institution are the problem. There are still people who make it work.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

It can't go to the church unless it was willed to the church. You've been fed a load of crap. Infact I think someone's been making you wanna hate the church, since in the past couple of times you've brought it up, your vociferous voice has rankled me.

The Church gets a tax break, so the property doesn't go to the government, so then the people who actually spend their tithe on the church for (not property) but to FEED the HUNGRY and CLOTHE the POOR, which some churches ACTUALLY STILL DO, I'd shut up about it if I were you. You're pissin me off, so grab a brain before you realize I'm Catholic and I'm resenting your words

*hand hovers over gun in holster*

I don't think she's talking about the church TODAY but the church over a hundred years ago when it owned everything. Today, in the US the church doesn't have anywhere near as much control as it did way back when. This is a law made a long time ago that doesn't exist anymore.

It really seems to me to be a misunderstanding made of a lack of distinguishing between now and then.

[StoryJunkie]

Sexy stuff from the bible: The difference between lust and love: (What Raphael told Tobias)

6:18. But thou when thou shalt take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep thyself continent from her, and give thyself to nothing else but to prayers with her.

Tu autem cum acceperis eam ingressus cubiculum per tres dies continens esto ab ea et nihil aliud nisi orationibus vacabis cum ea

6:19. And on that night lay the liver of the fish on the fire, and the devil shall be driven away.

Ipsa autem nocte incenso iecore piscis fugabitur daemonium

6:20. But the second night thou shalt be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs.

Secunda vero nocte in copulatione sanctorum patriarcharum admitteris

6:21. And the third night thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you.

Tertia autem nocte benedictione consequeris ut filii ex vobis incolomes procreentur

6:22. And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.

Transacta autem tertia nocte accipies virginem cum timore Domini amore filiorum magis quam libidinis ductus ut in semine Abrahae benedictionem in filiis consequaris

Since someone not of this world said this, and the strange notion of marriage probably not yet instituted at the time, I think this is rather weird. (Going to look up more stuff from that weird book...unless you want me to stop.)

(God, I love some of these stories!) Raphael has to reassure Raguel, who is afriad for Tobias, since 7 previous men have died before the marriage could be consumated.

7:11. Now when Raguel heard this he was afraid, knowing what had happened to those seven husbands, that went in unto her: and he began to fear lest it might happen to him also in like manner: and as he was in suspense, and gave no answer to his petition,

Quo audito verbo Raguhel expavit sciens quid evenerit illis septem viris et timere coepit ne forte et huic similiter accideret et cum nutaret et non daret ullum petenti responsum

7:12. The angel said to him: Be not afraid to give her to this man, for to him who feareth God is thy daughter due to be his wife: therefore another could not have her.

Dixit ei angelus noli timere dare illam isti quoniam huic timenti Deum debetur coniux filia tua propterea alius non potuit habere illam

7:13. Then Raguel said: I doubt not but God hath regarded my prayers and tears in his sight.

Tunc dixit Raguhel non dubito quod Deus preces et lacrimas meas in conspectu suo admiserit

7:14. And I believe he hath therefore made you come to me, that this maid might be married to one of her own kindred, according to the law of Moses: and now doubt not but I will give her to thee.

Et credo quoniam ideo vos fecit ad me venire ut ista coniungeretur cognationi suae secundum legem Mosi et nunc noli dubium gerere quod tibi eam non tradam

7:15. And taking the right hand of his daughter, he gave it into the right hand of Tobias, saying: The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob be with you, and may he join you together, and fulfil his blessing in you.

Et adprehendens dexteram filiae suae dexterae Tobiae tradidit dicens Deus Abraham et Deus Isaac et Deus Iacob sit vobiscum et ipse coniungat vos impleatque benedictionem suam in vobis

7:16. And taking paper they made a writing of the marriage.

Et accepta carta fecerunt conscriptionem coniugii

7:17. And afterwards they made merry, blessing God.

Et post haec epulati sunt benedicentes Deum

Exciting stuff, huh?

Oh there are tons more where this came from, I guess. One of the things that is starkly blatant is that people marry people. They aren't marrying angels. The fabric of society is slowly unravelling, and I can see it from where I am because I'm probably twice as old as anyone here, but as soon as the government gave permission for divorce, divorce sured happened alot. Well, though, thinking upon it more deeply, people divorced in the "olden" days too, and all they need to say in the Middle East is "I divorce you" three times, and that's that!. I'm sure there's lots of places in the bible that people can quote, but I think its important if people are going to bring up the "institution" of marriage. I mean, who can digest it all? In the end, Christ himself said (just kind of paraphrasing here) that divorce was allowed because people are so hard to teach.

I don't think she's talking about the church TODAY but the church over a hundred years ago when it owned everything. Today, in the US the church doesn't have anywhere near as much control as it did way back when. This is a law made a long time ago that doesn't exist anymore.

It really seems to me to be a misunderstanding made of a lack of distinguishing between now and then.

well, then I think that the idea of property should be looked at back then as well. Because the Lords owned the land. They defended it from invaders, the serfs owned nothing, so I guess I need an education here. Where did the church get this property? Did they just take it over? What does she mean, exactly? And does she think the church is not run by people? or by aliens? Or what? I don't get where she is coming from. The church may have been "bad" one time out of 12, but man for the 11 times she was good, no one appreciates it. I just ticks me off.

[Guest chibi4president]

Just curious SJ...did those stories come from the Septuagint? (I may be spelling it wrong, I'm not sure it's even called that...whatever...the missing books of the Bible that Protestants don't read..)

[Guest Melody Fate]

Nothing against all you happily married people, but I've noticed something that's really off-putting. People who are against gay marriage talk about destroying the sanctity of marriage, when in truth gays getting married is not the problem.

Yes, well, people will find all sorts of crazy ways to justify their stupid beliefs. I believe marriage is sacred, but I also believe that love is sacred and if two adults love each other, they should be allowed to get married. Sooo, where do I fit into the scheme of things? And there are a lot more people like me than some might think.

My question is, why even bother?

Because for some, it still is sacred. Because I wanted to tell the world that I loved this man and I was going to spend my life with him. I still love him. He's my best friend, he's my lover, he's everything to me. Of course, we have no children, which some would now consider us flawed and not a real "family," but our marrage has lasted where a lot of ones with children have failed.

My question is, why even bother? If there's a 50 percent chance that it may not work out, why get married at all? Why can't we just abolish marriage altogether and have everybody just live together until they get tired of each other? Then they can just split without even having to hire a lawyer! As for the kids, there's plenty of illegitimate kids out there already, and they turn out just fine! I mean, look at me!

You mean people aren't allowed to just live together now? And are illegitimate kids illegal or something? Oh, okay, I get it, you're suggesting why don't we abolish marrage because half the population can't get it right. Well, since I'm not in favor of making laws abolishing people's right to live together, or the rights of people to have children in or out of wedlock, I don't see why it's quite necessary to abolish marrage. If you think it's an outdated concept, then by all means, don't get married.

The divorce rate may have been steadily climbing, but that's not necessarily always a bad thing. In the days of, "no one gets a divorce," there were some pretty nasty things going on too, that people seem to forget. Like beating your wife and / or kids, was something that, while wasn't nice, was really only your business. Where a husband couldn't rape his wife because once married, it was the man's right to sex whenever he wanted it, therefore, legally, it was impossible for a woman to claim she was raped by her husband.

For the right people, marriage is wonderful. But, like with anything that's good, if someone can find a way to screw it up, they will. People like Britney would screw up a cheese sandwich if it would give her more notoriety, but that's her problem, it isn't the fault of marrage.

There was one middle-class couple who spent $10,000--on their pictures! Just their pictures! That's half my college tuition! All that money--for one day?  That's consumerism at its WORST!

Okay...if they had the money to do it, why is that so upsetting? It's their money.

It's funny how those of us with less are always pissed off at those with more for spending their money on things we don't approve of. Yeah, it can suck to see someone buying a huge diamond when you're wondering how to make pasta seem interesting for the 6th night in a row, but still... even if they spent their money on something else, like opening a school for handicapped children, you'd still be trying to figure out how to make pasta more interesting for the 6th night in a row.

You would have been horrified at my wedding. It cost my parents huge money. Money they'd been putting aside for this since I was a baby, and then investing in various things to make them more money, so they had some major bucks to spend on one day. Florisits got paid, bakers, photographers, the DJ and his assitant. Waiters, waitresses, bartenders, etc. I'll bet all those people were deliriously happy at my parents consumerism, because it meant they could feed their families and maybe even pay their student loans.

I didn't really need that fancy a wedding, but my parents love giving it to me and who was I to ruin their dream?

Maybe I'm just bitter because my parents are divorced. But the truth is, marriage has long lost its appeal for me.

Maybe you'll change your mind someday, maybe you won't. Yes, I am glad I married my husband, I would do it again in a heartbeat. However, if they abolished marrage tomorrow, I would stay with him. I love him. Being married was a public way for us to show it, but before that we were married in our hearts.

While I fully believe homosexuals have the right to be married, I also believe the most important part of marrage is created in the heart. Some folks will get it, and even if they don't walk the isle, they'll be married. Some folks will never get it, and walk the isle, but they'll never really be married. Just in the eyes of the law, not in their hearts.

It's like I tell my father. "You have the married couple on one side of the street, who scream at each other day and night. You have the gay couple on the other side who sit on the porch and hold hands in the twilight and gaze at each other like their entire world begin and end with the other. Who do you think God considers to be married?"

[Guest chibi4president]

Okay...if they had the money to do it, why is that so upsetting? It's their money.

It's funny how those of us with less are always pissed off at those with more for spending their money on things we don't approve of. Yeah, it can suck to see someone buying a huge diamond when you're wondering how to make pasta seem interesting for the 6th night in a row, but still... even if they spent their money on something else, like opening a school for handicapped children, you'd still be trying to figure out how to make pasta more interesting for the 6th night in a row.

You would have been horrified at my wedding. It cost my parents huge money. Money they'd been putting aside for this since I was a baby, and then investing in various things to make them more money, so they had some major bucks to spend on one day. Florisits got paid, bakers, photographers, the DJ and his assitant. Waiters, waitresses, bartenders, etc. I'll bet all those people were deliriously happy at my parents consumerism, because it meant they could feed their families and maybe even pay their student loans.

I didn't really need that fancy a wedding, but my parents love giving it to me and who was I to ruin their dream?

I think it was wonderful, Melody Fate, for your parents to save up money to pay for a fairytale wedding for you. That was super-great. However, for people like me whose parent doesn't have the money to save (although Mom would happily buy cake mix and a Bundt pan and make a pound cake or two). If I were to get married now, I would end up designing and sewing my own dress, sneaking and picking flowers from Pittman's Botanical Nursery for my bouquet, and possibly getting married the uber-classy way my parents did. But I wouldn't care one bit. We would still be married, whether it's in a smokehouse or the Vatican, and we wouldn't love each other any less. And that is why I feel the way I feel about weddings and marriage. It's just my upbringing.

It's not just me, it was kind of a scandal in my hometown. These people who spent 100 grand plus were not wealthy by any means. People were like, "If they had that kind of money they could have donated to charity or the church..." I won't go that far, though. It wasn't really upsetting, it's just the economist in me. "Don't waste big money on something that you can't use forever--or at least a while" has been drilled in my head from day one. In other words, I'm cheap.

I'm not talking about people who have the money at their disposal and can spend it at will. I'm talking about people who struggle to make ends meet but take out huge loans to pay for a fancy wedding and then end up paying it off until they' re old and gray. IF they stay together that long. It's just not worth it to me. I'm talking about people who put more worth on the wedding than they do the marriage. And that's what's important.

The people that shouldn't have huge weddings are those who aren't smart enough to save up money like Melody's parents did.

Maybe I should rephrase "Marriage should be abolished." I should have said, "People who aren't going to take it seriously should think twice about getting married." That's why I said No offense to those that are happily married, because I understand that there are the other 50% of happy marriages. And people are allowed to simply live together, but it's really frowned upon. At least where I live.

[StoryJunkie]

Just curious SJ...did those stories come from the Septuagint? (I may be spelling it wrong, I'm not sure it's even called that...whatever...the missing books of the Bible that Protestants don't read..)

er, yes. My favoritest of all time. Too bad for the others who never read it. I bet they read "Tess of the Dubervilles" though! Man, that book depressed me.

As for people who yell at each other, all relationships (not just marriages), there is a testing ground, a growing curve, just like 3 year olds and "terrible twos", a marriage goes through growing pains. Some people like to fight. There are lots of reasons why things are the way they are. It's just like their back-grounds, the buttons they allow others to push, owning your own emotions, dealing with crap you didn't know you had to deal with, not taking care of yourself, illness, remodelling the home, death of a child. There's TONS of outside influences and so many different .... well, darling, I just love you, that's all. I could go on and on, but that what I like most about stories. All those crazy influences. Don't let it upset you. As for me, I am no saint. I had a 3 day Ukrainian wedding complete with drunken dancing on the tables (after we left) and a good excuse as any for everyone to get together and have a bash. I made my own wedding gown (I wish I hadn't, now, but hey, ce le vie), and then we argued for 10 years straight. None of my kids want to have kids of their own, and for damn good reason. I'm not saying that what we did was good or anything like that, but there is a lot of unexpected things out there that will test the limits of your patience. I envy those who are mature enough to be fulfilled by their relationships, but you know what? I've found those that I've thought to be the most enduring to actually be the most at risk because guess what? They never communicated. Not really. Oooh, I'm waxing philisophic. I think I'm pretty lucky. I love my life. I had to go through more shit than I thought possible, but you know, an eagle can't fly unless it leaves the nest and opens its wings.

[Guest Little_Girl_Lost]

None of my kids want to have kids of their own, and for damn good reason.  I'm not saying that what we did was good or anything like that, but there is a lot of unexpected things out there that will test the limits of your patience.  I envy those who are mature enough to be fulfilled by their relationships, but you know what?  I've found those that I've thought to be the most enduring to actually be the most at risk because guess what?  They never communicated.  Not really.  Oooh, I'm waxing philisophic..

Holy....smeg. You've just described me!

I never wanted to get married when I was younger as I saw marriage turn out the worst in my parents, and when they divorced and re-married, I thought: It means nothing. Nothing at all. Why bother? Since then, I've seen marriage as a....scam, kind of. People, and society, make marriage seem like a real big deal-ooooh, what kind of dress are you going to wear, what colour theme are you having, how big is the cake going to be? When really, it's just all a pile of shit. Yeah, you wear your dress (or suit), you get married, you look good with your family with the matching colour theme you picked for all the guests, you eat cake; you f*ck, you have kids, etc. And after all that, people can still grow apart. There's isn't enough cake or wedding dresses or matching colour themes in the world that would keep an unhappily married couple together, if they start to grow apart. And all you've done is get married to a person you don't really love, and you've got their kids, and you've spent a shitload of money on cake and dresses and f*ck knows what else for nothing. I would much rather just be with someone than have to go through the traumatic scam of marriage. Even though society depicts cohabitation as something evil nowadays. It's a scam; its the companies who make the cake, dresses, after-party food, etc that profit from marriages that were never supposed to be; yet people still choose to get married when they're not meant for each other because they become decieved with disillusions that marriage is the be-all and end-all of life, in terms of relationships. Why would I want to make such an ill-informed decision? No, I've decided otherwise, I've decided against marriage.

Shit, is it just me, or am I sounding a bit like Mark Renton from Trainspotting?

"Choose Love. Choose a girlfriend/boyfriend. Choose no pre-marital sex. Choose courting. Choose a f*cking big marriage, a matching colour theme for the guests, a big white dress, a professional photographer and lots of cake. Choose planned pregnancies, parenting courses and natural births. Choose baby names. Choose a baby-sitter. Choose your friends, similarly married. Choose your children's clothes and matching nightclothes. Choose matching carpets and curtains for your baby's room in a range of f*cking fabrics. Choose family trips-out and wondering who the f*ck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting in that baby room, doing the mind-numbing, spirity-crushing chore of calming your crying baby down, stuffing f*cking baby food into it's mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarassment to the selfish, f*cked up brats that your "healthy marriage" spawned to replace yourself. Choose your girlfriend/boyfriend. Choose marriage.... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose marriage. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got freedom?"

As StoryJunkie says, I am genuinely happy for those that get married and overcome their differences and stay together and grow old together; basking in each other's favourable company. But I don't think I'd capable of doing that. My mother once said that I would either let someone who loved me walk all over me, or I'd walk all over them. I don't think I'm the sort of person who could settle with one person. I don't think I'll ever be ready for commitment. Maybe that's immature and a silly way of looking at romance and marriage and relationships in general, but hey, f*ck it; that's me. And I don't care if you believe love is dead or not. For me, love is just a complex mixture of biology, chemistry and psychology. Nothing more. So if you're in love, and happily married, and coping with the problems I'm sure married couples have to regularly cope with; that's great. Give the statistical group of married people something to be proud of when people make statistics of you, eh? Because I certainly won't be joining you in a hurry, just another person who is going to grow apart from their spouse and give other married people a bad name.

I, too, think I'm lucky. I, too, love life.

[dazzledfirestar]

The cheapening of marriage in my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with the wedding itself. It has to do with people who want to throw a big party, but don't think about what that party means. They want a wedding, not a marriage. I had the big wedding, the dress, the cake the whole nine yards. It was a great party, but the reason it meant so much is one simple thing. My husband and I weren't there for the party, we were there to celebrate our relationship with our family and friends. That's what a wedding is supposed to be. A celebration of love and commitment, of family coming together.

And btw, no one ever said keeping any relationship together was easy. the divorce rate is so high because there is several generations now that think as soon as things don't go their way, they can just bale out. If you marry someone and you can't comprimse with them, it isn't going to last.

[Iggy_lovechild]

Shit, is it just me, or am I sounding a bit like Mark Renton from Trainspotting?

"Choose Love. Choose a girlfriend/boyfriend. Choose no pre-marital sex. Choose courting. Choose a f*cking big marriage, a matching colour theme for the guests, a big white dress, a professional photographer and lots of cake. Choose planned pregnancies, parenting courses and natural births. Choose baby names. Choose a baby-sitter. Choose your friends, similarly married. Choose your children's clothes and matching nightclothes. Choose matching carpets and curtains for your baby's room in a range of f*cking fabrics. Choose family trips-out and wondering who the f*ck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting in that baby room, doing the mind-numbing, spirity-crushing chore of calming your crying baby down, stuffing f*cking baby food into it's mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarassment to the selfish, f*cked up brats that your "healthy marriage" spawned to replace yourself. Choose your girlfriend/boyfriend. Choose marriage.... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose marriage. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got freedom?"

I love you so much right now. Damn, now I want to read Trainspotting again (and then end up talking a Scottish accent for two weeks ).

Interesting thing: My boyfriend and I are in gross disagreement on marriage. He wants to get married and doesn't understand why I'm so cynical about it. He's just as pagan as I am (okay, that's a lie. I'm a Satanist. Sometimes I just say I'm pagan so as to not scare people. Anton would be so disappointed in me...), but he has the concept of marriage meaning something. He goes by the old ways, and believes in marriage being the binding of two souls. Sweet, isn't he? Frankly, I can't be bothered by that kind of romantic bullshit, even if I am a bit of a romantic in my own way.

I guess I more believe that I shouldn't need a fucking ceremony to prove my love and loyalty to someone. That love is so much more than hearts and flowers and a goddamned peice of paper.

*sighs* At least we agree on breeding (ie: fuck that).

[dazzledfirestar]

I guess I more believe that I shouldn't need a fucking ceremony to prove my love and loyalty to someone. That love is so much more than hearts and flowers and a goddamned peice of paper.

I guess I don't look at that piece of paper as proof. In fact I don't think it means anything. The reason I got married in the traditional sense was to share that love with our family and friends. To celebrate it. The hearts and flowers and the piece of paper didn't matter. At least to me

[Guest Nympho]

OK, coming into this conversation a bit late but here's how I see it. Gay, hetero, bi, satanist, catholic, protestant, babtist or wicca, whatever you are there are gonna be people who share your beliefs and still screw up being together. It can be a shotgun wedding at the Lion's Club, a yuppie wedding at the country club, a handfasting or simply living together. People are gonna screw up. Nothing you can do to change that, but you can do your best to make sure their examples are not followed by you and your SO.

I think if ya wanna get married, go ahead. Just be sure you're marrying for the right reasons and you know you can grow along with your SO as they grow. That's the reason I'll never get married. I'm stubborn and there is little chance of me ever changing. On the other hand one of my big sisters is still happily married after nearly ten years with her husband.

I also think there should be a way to legally declare you are living together so that if something happens to your SO, you receive the benifits that married couples are privvy to. Just because you didn't choose the traditional way does not mean that your relationship means anything less than those who did.

[StoryJunkie]

Good God! Now for some reason, I'm thinking, damn, we humans are a cocky bunch! We are mere insectoid life forms compared to the force behind it all, we may as well be discussing a wedding between two cockroaches!

er, sry. It was an odd image.

[Guest Little_Girl_Lost]

I guess I don't look at that piece of paper as proof. In fact I don't think it means anything. The reason I got married in the traditional sense was to share that love with our family and friends.

That's exactly my point-if you love someone enough, you shouldn't have to have something to prove you love them. It should just be an unspoken rule that you're in love with them.

My friend made me laugh when I invited her to my mother and step-father's wedding; I told her that my mother was going to wear a white dress and she said, very seriously, that that was "technically wrong".

Iggy Lovechild, I share exactly the same views on marriage-I'm completely, utterly, and I've been told, immaturely cynical about it all; although I still do consider myself a hopless romantic. Just not in the traditional sense. No person alive could get me to marry them. And as for babies-just no. I'd rather have a horse or puppy/kitten. I told my friend that (same one from above) and she said "What, you'd rather give birth to a kitten?"

Ah, dippy friends. I do love them.