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Guest Melody Fate
Posted
Stephen King cannot write a Mary Sue, that is ridiculous. MS is a fanfiction term. Writers are expected to write themselves into their original fiction to some extent as it is almost impossible to write a character that is completely different from yourself. Also, unless the main character is some kind of anti-hero, they are mostly sympathetic types. Fanfiction has Mary Sues, original fiction has Heroes.

Ever read the "First people" series of books by Jean Auel? Clan of the Cave Bear, Valley of the Horses, and so on?

Ayla, the main character is the most magnificent Mary Sue that ever lived. This woman invented almost everything. She invented the sewing needle, she domesticated horses, you name it, she's done it. Evetually, if more books are published, I figure old Ayla is going to invent computers and the Internet with nothing but a flint knife and a handfull of herbs.

On top of that, looks-wise she's a prehistoic Jessica Simpson and she's an utter tiger in the sack too. All the men want Ayla and all the women want to be Ayla.

Yes, it's very possible for original fiction to contain Mary Sue's. The term was started by the fanfiction crowd, but a lot of them pointed to Ayla as the example of what a Mary Sue was, especially when trying to explain the concept to someone who might never have encountered Fanfiction before.

Stephen King can write a Mary Sue. As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't yet, although he's come pretty closed, but he can do it, anyone can. Just because it's an entirely original fiction and not fanfiction doesn't mean there can't be a Mary Sue in it.

Again, a lot of it has to do with the quality of writing. You can give a character some Mary Sue traits and if you're a good writer, you'll get away with it. While Luke Skywalker might have some characteristics found in a Mary Sue, the character is so well done that the readers don't mind. They like the character just as much as the creator does, so the fact that he's so good looking and often so perfect, doesn't bother us at all.

Ayla, on the other hand, is a Mary Sue because about the middle of the second book, most people start rolling their eyes and getting tired of Ayla and her absolute perfection and brilliance. How many times must we put up with someone who does outstandingly remarkable things, things that will change the course of mankind completely, but still wrings her hands and acts all apologetic for being alive? How can anyone live with everyone worshiping at their feet and still play this, "Aw, shucks, t'weren't nothin,'" attitude? It's just poor writing.

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Guest Serenanna
Posted

Ok, I beg to differ somewhat on all this, and propose my definition.

To me a Mary/Gary Sue is an OC in any work of fiction who's sole purpose in the existance in the fic is to:

A. Bed the favorite character/s of an established series as quickly as possible, maybe even love at first sight deals, and often it's annoyingly done as possible.

B. Be the very best, at the top of everything, and overshadow everyone else at the expense of characterization.

C. Be absolutely perfect no matter what they do or how unlikely, this includes spontanious deus ex machina solutions and neeto new abilities that always fall to them.

D. They remain as flat and unchanging in the beginning of the story as they do in the end, no matter how many times the plot is solved by them or affects them too.

E. All of the above in one.

Heros in OC still have flaws in small ways perhaps, or at least they should to humanize them. No one ever roots for the flawless knight in shining armor with perfect hair, too white teeth, years of intense, but unscaring, training, and the knowledge of one thousand books of wisdom as he galantly saves the lady of his dreams. But if said knight was slightly scruffy and a little unscruplous, or had a troubled past, you'd have the makings of an unlikely hero. It's cliche, but that's why they're called cliches, and used so much, because they work.

It's why everyone loves Han Solo, but gudgingly believes in Luke's quest and him as the hero because he starts out as innocent and naive and then goes darker. No character is static in the basis of a story. They change in the progress for better or for worse.

Sere

Guest Pink Lace
Posted

If Ayla is a Mary Sue then so is Jesus because he is perfect. So what about Superman, Legolas and all the other Heroes? wink.gif

The Mary Sue term belongs in fanfiction. If you use it outside of it then you get in real trouble as many, many characters are just as powerful or perfect as a Mary Sue is in fanfiction.

I read science fiction/fantasy and yes, many characters are perfect. I mean they invent everything, are all-powerful, all-knowing, all-everything but they are not Mary Sues, they are meant to be like that deliberately.

God, I just read some book by Phillip Jose Farmer where Tarzan is the hero and he was like perfectly beautiful, strong, manly, gentlemanly, and he travels back in time. Being from the future and immortal, he invents like 80% of everything. That does not make him a Mary Sue. He is just the Hero.

If this Ayla is perfect, no doubt she is meant to be perfect. *shrugs* Never read those books but I believe they are pretty popular so I bet many people do like her. wink.gif

I don't require that all characters in original fiction have flaws, it's so boring and cliche to require that characters always have certain things in common.

Where's the creativity? I find it interesting to read how a perfect being could exist. laugh.gif People who complain about Mary Sues in original fiction seem to me to always want the same old thing all the time. tongue.gif *shrugs* Fanfiction, because of it's derivative nature, should stick at least a little bit to canon but original fiction should NOT have that sort of limit.

No one outside the fanfiction community even mentions Mary Sues and that's how it should be.

Guest Serenanna
Posted

You're missing the point I made. It's not perfect verses not-perfect, it's the small things that authors add or leave out that takes a mary-sue or any OC or any character period from flat and annoying to believeable.

All the characters you mentioned have one thing in common, a coherent, likeable personality. Ok, so Jesus was perfect, but he also didn't have the disciples falling down left and right worshipping him the moment they met now did they? No, of course not, it never happens in real life like that anyway. Superman still had to be dorky Clark Kent and hide himself. Legolas certainly wasn't perfect, but then again LOTR, despite fangirl writing, wasn't about him. It was about the damned ring.

But I disgress, this is the point which I'm making clearer now.

All characters no matter how you label them in all types of fiction straddle the same line of reality and believablity or . . . being just soulless, overpowered bodies. It is the duty of the creator in what medium they work to give that quality to their creations. It is what seperates good authors from bad bad authors. Or at least that's just my opinion.

Sere

Guest Pink Lace
Posted
You're missing the point I made. It's not perfect verses not-perfect, it's the small things that authors add or leave out that takes a mary-sue or any OC or any character period from flat and annoying to believeable.

Ahem. Not all characters are meant to be believeable. Pefect one-dimensional archetypes exist, especially in horror (see the Stephen King example), fantasy (many stories of nonhumans like angels, godlike beings, etc.) and science fiction (aliens, supermen, robots, whatever). Sometimes stories are not character intensive because they are idea-driven or plot-driven. That does not make these stories bad.

All the characters you mentioned have one thing in common, a coherent, likeable personality.

They don't have to be likeable either. Writers of original fiction shouldn't HAVE to write likeable, believeable, flawed, human characters all the time. That's why I don't think original fiction can have Mary Sues, it's just another type of character.

In theory it would be possible to write a good self-insertion/Mary Sue fanfiction ala A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court but even if it were well-written it would still be a Mary Sue as it is in fanfiction. A MS isn't about good or bad writing, it's a certain type of wish-fulfillment character.

Posted
Stephen King can write a Mary Sue. As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't yet, although he's come pretty closed, but he can do it, anyone can. Just because it's an entirely original fiction and not fanfiction doesn't mean there can't be a Mary Sue in it.

Although the term "Mary Sue" may have appeared in regards to fanfiction, it is totally possible for original fiction to contain them. There have been a few examples in this thread already and I won't rehash.

I agree with Melody when she says that it depends on how well written the story is. I've read some awful fics with OC's that were obvious Mary Sues and made me cringe, but other stories with OC's were fairly entertaining, I didn't get the "vibe" that the story was a self-insertion.

And not all SI's are bad. I read a great Gary Stu that was told in first person and I enjoyed the hell out of it. The author was that good and it wasn't a fluke; his other fics were great as well.

It's not perfect verses not-perfect, it's the small things that authors add or leave out that takes a mary-sue or any OC or any character period from flat and annoying to believeable.
Pefect one-dimensional archetypes exist

When I was writing an original story, long ago, I had a character that, as Sere said, was "flat and annoying." I didn't care about him and if I didn't, readers wouldn't. What was the problem? He was too perfect, almost cavalier, which would be impossible in real life given the traumatic events I had happen to him. He was one dimensional. So after re-thinking his character, giving him believable flaws and reactions, he came to life and became my favorite character, which I thought would never happen.

I had even begun to post that story on the site, but original stories have a difficult time finding readers, I'm afraid, and I pulled it. I admit, I may play fast and loose with the concept of OC's in fanfics; mine are loaded with them, it's my way of cheating, I suppose. Being inspired by an existing story and taking canon characters and depositing them in situations of my making(but not AU). This rather unusual method may explain the lack of feedback for my fics; I may be messing with readers' heads too much, unintentionally of course. But I gotta be me.

I was getting off the subject, but I think that, again, Sere made a great point with her list and Melody was right there with her, articulate in her argument, as usual. Not all OC's are Mary Sues.

Guest Melody Fate
Posted
A MS isn't about good or bad writing, it's a certain type of wish-fulfillment character.

Oh bull. That's saying that only fanfiction contains wish-fulfillment characters.

Mary Sue has everything to do with writing quality. It may be an expression coined by fandom, but the concept of the perfectly annoying character has been around a lot longer. In fact, way back when I started playing D&D (which was when the game first came out) we had characters we called "Twinks" or "Oh GOD not THOSE!" They were annoying characters that their creators wanted everyone else in the game to fall in love with, but all we wanted to do was kill them off. They would spend hours coming up with these fantastic origin stories and we'd all say, "Don't care!" D&D is all original characters, yet we had lots of Mary Sues in them.

The most common thread I find in a Mary Sue is that the people in the story treat her differently than most of the readers would. When all the other characters are falling at this person's feet and you as the reader would much rather see them fall off a cliff, then that's a Mary Sue. If she's in peril and everyone in the story cannot rest until she's rescued, but you as a reader are thinking you'd be hard pressed to piss on her if she was on fire, then she's a Mary Sue.

In most cases she's good looking, she's perfect, she makes a mean brownie, she's the author, if the author was perfect, she's living the author's fantasy life, but... I've seen people write characters like that and get away with it. Why? Because despite all of that, there is something about the character we still like or at least respect. We believe the character, we believe in how others in the story are reacting to him or her.

A Mary Sue makes all the characters around her look stupid. No, I'm not talking about the evil person that nobody knows is evil and fools everyone. A good writer will make sure that the reader understands this person is able to fool everyone. I'm talking about a character that is obviously not nearly as great as everyone is treating her.

Is is possible to write Mary Sue characters into original fiction. Generally in published works you aren't as likely to find it, because of the whole publishing process. But honestly, read some of the original works in this site, or fictionpress and you'll find a lot of characters that are very Mary Sue. You'll also find a lot of characters that embrace a lot of the Mary Sue qualities, yet somehow aren't Mary Sue's.

(And please be careful about bringing Jesus into it. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus can't be a Mary Sue for one BIG reason, Jesus was real. Perfect or otherwise, he was real and a real person can't be a fictional character. If you don't believe Jesus was real, that's your right and I'll never say otherwise, but by the same token, don't imply that the being for which my entire faith is based around is fiction.)

Guest Pink Lace
Posted

Jeez my post got deleted. sad.gif I already typed up like twenty sentences.

Oh bull. That's saying that only fanfiction contains wish-fulfillment characters.

I never said that. Er my whole point has been that original fiction is FULL of wish fulfillment types. My point, in case no one noticed, is NOT that original fiction has no MS characters but rather people should not use the term Mary Sue because in original fiction, it is just another type of character and just as legitimate as flawed, human characters.

Mary Sue has everything to do with writing quality.

That's probably the whole argument there. IMHO MS has nothing to do with writing quality, it is simply a type of character that is pure wish fulfillment by the author.

Therefore, using my definition (which is widely used I believe) then whole genres of fiction would be full of Mary Sues. The most popular books around are romance novels and all their heroines are young, beautiful and special in some way. I guess there *could* be some romance novel with an ugly, stupid, ordinary heroine but I somehow doubt they would sell well.

For men well there's spy stories with characters like James Bond. Irresistably sexy and he can escape impossible situations while still looking like he stepped out of a magazine cover. (P.S. I love James Bond!)

Mary Sue is a derogatory term used for a certain type of character that embodies wish fulfillment, that is why I believe the term should not be used for original fiction as one of the legitimate purposes of reading and writing fiction is wish fulfillment or hmmm "escapism" I think that's the term. People WANT to read about smart, beautiful, young heroes/heroines who save the world. tongue.gif

Actually I have noticed Mary Sue/self-insertion fanfics often have good reviews, too. wink.gif Some people enjoy them.

BTW regarding what I said earlier about never liking OCs, I have to take it back now as when I thought it over I do recall some good ones.

Going back to the original topic in the first post (as we are sidetracked now, all my fault tongue.gif ) I remember liking some humorous stories with OCs and OCs as minor characters. If you read Final Fantasy characters, you might be familiar with RSL or Random Shinra Lackey, an original character created for comedic purposes. All he does is get blown up and stuff. wink.gif Hilarious!

I guess what I meant earlier about not liking OCs is when the OC is a main character paired up romantically with a canon character in a serious fic. *shivers* Somehow those are never written as well as I would like and are Mary Sue fics a lot. *pouts* Yes, in theory if it was well-written I would like it. On the other hand, I have read various good parodies and humorous stories with OCs which were good and also serious fics with OCs as minor characters which I liked.

Posted
I guess what I meant earlier about not liking OCs is when the OC is a main character paired up romantically with a canon character in a serious fic. *shivers* Somehow those are never written as well as I would like and are Mary Sue fics a lot. *pouts* Yes, in theory if it was well-written I would like it. On the other hand, I have read various good parodies and humorous stories with OCs which were good and also serious fics with OCs as minor characters which I liked.

It's a safe bet you've never read any of my HP fics, according to your first reason. And others may very well feel the same, which could explain the very small following for my stories; but in the limited feedback I've gotten for those fics, no mention was ever made of MS. Everybody's got their own take on things.

I understand the "purist" idea, which I think you mentioned previously. I have my own bizarre convictions along those lines with PotO stories. Many of those fics are a strange amalgam of the novel, the play, the film and a prequel novel that many Phantom fans take as gospel. It makes for extremely confusing stories to find a mixture of traits that make the canon character unrecognizeable at times.

Most of the stories are based on the musical, or film, so Erik (the Phantom) has a chance with Christine. But, as I said, in this regard, I am a purist. In the Leroux novel, Erik dies, end of story, no hope. A lot of those fans absolutely loathe the idea of OCs, but to my mind, either E/C have to hook up during the events of Leroux's story, or it has to be an OC set before the actual novel. I wrote the latter and one person did say "I usually don't like Mary Sues." An MS wasn't my intention; trying to write a story within my little canon confines made that story tricky.

In the end, everything is subjective. cool.gif

Posted
Everybody's got their own take on things.

I disagree to a certain extent, no matter what the issue has Become or what is has been Interpreted, there must be a story somewhere, somehow that had a main character named "Mary-Sue" and was so bad, it was refered to thereafter as the example of larger-than-life unrealistic 2 dimensional character that is the bane of the story experience. Finding that story will rest the case, so to speak. All arguements I've heard so far have been extremely informative.

Guest Melody Fate
Posted

Actually, I believe the first use of the term Mary Sue came from Star Trek fandom. Someone who wrote a more popular zine coined the phrase. Even then, it sparked controversy. Mostly, because reader's opinion will vary. Who I find to be Mary Sue you might find to be great. Even some of the most blatent Mary Sue stories I've ever seen usually have a small following of people who actually like the Mary Sue and therefore, will argue that it is not a Mary Sue.

For myself personally? If I like the character and the writing, the person isn't a Mary Sue. If she serves to enhance a story, rather than be the story, she's not a Mary Sue. If the people in her world react to her in a believable way and she responds in a believable way, then she's not a Mary Sue.

Look at the Dawn series from ancient X-Men fanfictions. I'm sorry, but if you're going for a cold hard, "If character is this, this, and this, then she's a Mary Sue!" then Dawn would ring off all the alarms. The girl died and came back to life on a regular basis. Yet, the stories, while not perfect, were so well written and so entertaining that the term, "Mary Sue" rarely was used to describe Dawn.

Then you have Ms. Jean Grey herself, who comes right from the X-Men. Ever read the very first X-Men comic ever done? The one from the '60s? Jean Grey comes across as a huge Mary Sue. She waltzes into the mansion and immedietly makes Bobby, Hank, Warren, and Scott drool, and behaves as if drooling over her is a given right she's quite used to. She gives the impression that if they weren't drooling over her, then something would be terribly wrong with the world. She proceeds to display her powers with such amazing skill that my first opinion was, "Why the hell is she in a school to help her with her powers? She's better at them than anyone else."

I'ts later "discovered" (read "rewritten") that Jean was a lot more vulnerable and had special training by the professor before coming to the school, but still her first appearance she comes across so Mary Sue.

Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if there are people out there who would lable my main character as a Mary Sue. I hope they'd be wrong, but you never know... tongue.gif

Posted

StoryJunkie,

When I said "everybody's got their take on things," I was mainly referring to my own fics and how people might interpret OCs, I didn't mean it as a kind of general blanket statement; sorry if that was a bit confusing. I think it's safe to say that that troublesome "Mary Sue" is going to have people debating this issue for a long, long time. That annoying little bitch. biggrin.gif

Guest Animefan249
Posted

as far as the Mary Sue thing goes, i have gotten a few of those in my time here. and as a writer you learn how to play on what the readers on the want to see. At times i almost feel that, yes they are our own spin of the series or whatever but the stories don't entierly belong to us. there are unwritten rules that apply to stories that are not found out until you check the review.

like some things can be understood, like taking a character out of character or misspelling somones name. but there are something you can't do with the stories because you'll get yelled at by readers. The Yugioh stories are a good example of this, like if you put Yami Yugi with anyone other then Yugi then you get yelled at which puts some people at a dissavantage because they can't do what they want with him. Excpet if he's raping someone then you can do it but other then that you can't.

  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Filledolle
Posted

I define Mary Sues as little-filtered self-insert fantasies of the writer.

Beyond that, I think the Mary Sue -concept is an expression of the pointless idea that "to be human is to be imperfect".

I don't mind Mary Sues.

  • 11 months later...
Posted

Forgive me for the bump, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

To me, the whole Mary Sue thing has become more of a casual insult and an excuse to bash any OC that appears in a story, whether that OC is well-rounded and realistic or not, and now it's damned if you provide some background on the OC, damned if you write an OC without providing any background whatsoever. Plus there's really no basic set of "rules" or "characteristics" to properly define what makes an OC an MS or not, simply because it all boils to down to the perception of the individual reader, and the show that their story is based on.

Posted
One of the arguments I've heard is that if the OC is involved in a romantic relationship with a canon character then they're a Mary Sue. Personally, if you can find a way to reasonably place an OC with a canon character, without making the canon character OOC, then go for it. Some canon pairings are just cringe worthy, so if an author wants to mess with that in a believable fashion, I don't see the problem with that.

This is also another reason why the whole MS issue irks me, because it's my belief that just because one is a fan of a show, that doesn't mean they have to accept all of what was presented, canon couplings included.

I'll site The Real Ghostbusters cartoon series as an example. The writers of the show wanted it so that Egon, one of the GB's, would eventually be dating Janine, the secretary. But I am not a fan of this coupling, because I don't think Janine is a right match for him. Egon is eccentric and scientific and at times, aloof. A potential girlfriend would have to have a lot of patience in dealing with someone as eccentric and aloof as he is. It's also been theorized that Egon may have had an Autism Spectrum Disorder such as Aspergers Syndrome(but that's another matter entirely).

While Janine at times was a bit bookish and nerdy, she had some annoying qualities which really frightened Egon, she came across as flighty at times, and it also seemed to me that she didn't take a genuine interest in his hobbies and things that he liked. Now does that mean I hate Janine? Not at all. Plus, if theory of Egon having an ASD is true, then I don't believe that Janine would have enough patience to deal with someone with an ASD(believe me, I live with it myself, and you gotta have the patience to deal with me!).

But, while it took Egon a few years to "like" Janine in that way, and to admit it, of course it would be OOC for him to believe in love at first sight with any other potential date, which is why I've had to make several revisions to the fanfics I wrote and published at FF.net, that feature the OC I introduced that I've wanted to eventually set Egon up with. However, due to problems with people(most of them hardcore E/J-ers) that think they own the GB-verse, who think that because they're better writers and as such, feel that alone gives them the right to dictate to others what to write, I've quit writing GB fanfiction altogether.

Posted

I think it's time to take the phrase "Mary Sue" back, and this is what I'm trying to do with the Mary Sue Virus. It is a blatant SI but... from what I've been told, it is well written and a good story. Granted these Sues are well aware of what they are and what they are doing, and maybe that's the secret. If Mary sue is aware that she is annoying and perfect and powerful, but she has a distaste for that, and tries not to be that stereotype.

Now that that's out of the way, the typical bad "Mary Sue" is annoying and perfect and loved, and well, that's just not interesting to read.

Posted

I have a question about Mary Sue's. If a character is loved, powerful, and all that - and doesn't hate herself for it - but is still hated by some - not trusted by others... is she still a Mary Sue?

Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi
Posted
I have a question about Mary Sue's.  If a character is loved, powerful, and all that - and doesn't hate herself for it - but is still hated by some - not trusted by others... is she still a Mary Sue?

It depends. Are the people who hate/distrust her otherwise good people? If so, then she's not a Mary Sue. However, if all animosity is coming from the "Bad guys" then it really doesn't count as a depth point.

The entire idea of a Mary Sue, really, is that the character is loved by all the good guys, and maybe the bad guys. Maybe. There have been many times where the Mary Sue has managed to, by will of her pristine heart and what have you, cause a change of heart in the bad guy, even if it's a bad guy who supremely loves being bad.

There's a fine line there, but a clear definition of the two.

The reason Dazz's Mary Sue Virus does so well because it's not really a Mary Sue! It's a parody-ish self insertion with a really great plot, serious concerns and well structured characters that aren't just made of the "perfect" aspects of the people they're based off of. Furthermore, they aren't just getting by with pretty faces, and they aren't all good at everything. Each of them has something they excel at and helps the other three out, in essence, complimenting each other fabulously.

Not to mention, they're bound to get themselves into a great deal of trouble... whip.gif

Therefore, not Mary Sues, who really carry the story on their own with little help from others.

Posted
The reason my Mary Sue Virus does so well because it's not really a Mary Sue! It's a parody-ish self insertion with a really great plot, serious concerns and well structured characters that aren't just made of the "perfect" aspects of the people they're based off of. Furthermore, they aren't just getting by with pretty faces, and they aren't all good at everything. Each of them has something they excel at and helps the other three out, in essence, complimenting each other fabulously.

Your MarySue Virus, Pix? blink.gif Did I miss something you've written, or are you trying to take credit for Dazzled's story now? wink.gif

Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi
Posted
Your MarySue Virus, Pix? blink.gif Did I miss something you've written, or are you trying to take credit for Dazzled's story now? wink.gif

blink.gif How the fuck...?

Thanks for spotting that, Nan. wacko.gif That was weird...

Posted

Hey, no problem. Easy to do, I know. Our fingers just seem to get carried away with their own ideas sometimes and completely ignore our brains. laugh.gif

Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi
Posted
laugh.gif And I didn't even notice! laugh.gif But thanks for the wonderful things you said, Pix! I really appriciate that!

hug.gif Well since I rarely review, and it was brought up anyway, I figured I'd give you the praise you deserve. two_thumbs.gif

  • 1 month later...
Posted

Well, Mary Sues... Mary Sues are like chickenpox: you have a really bad case early on, it gets cured, and it either returns once or twice or it never comes back again. EVERYONE in the writing world has written at least one Mary Sue in their lifetime. They can either get away with it and keep that Mary Sue going, or they can learn how to write well-rounded characters and never make another Mary Sue.

I remember I was making this one character for an original story where Atlantis had risen up from the ocean, becoming the "capital of the world" since half of the continents sank due to it rising up.

The character's name was Kamos, a.k.a "Kamos the Minotaur", so named because he was hard-headed and easy to piss off. He was a skateboarder right on par with Tony Hawk, had a hot mother that liked to touch him, and was highly athletic.

By the time I had gotten to the fourth chapter, Kamos had saved a young woman from her rapist ex-boyfriend (May Bell was her name), boarded a cruise ship with only a handgun, and had stopped and recruited a cute psychic thief from running off with $5,000,000 in Russian bonds (which he kept). tongue.gif Yeah, that has "Gary Stue/Mary Sue" tattooed all over it.

Nowadays, I make sure my characters have several flaws, and are only "perfect" superficially (they may seem perfect, but in the end have a big problem with them). One example is Mitsuki, a beautiful girl that needs the life force of other people in order to survive the cancer she inherited from her father (I think that might... ruin a perfectly good date).

I also have another named Li Yang Fei

Mary Sues are a bit hard to spot, but I have compiled a checklist for any personal future reference:

1. Is beautiful

2. Has a troubled past

3. Gets off easy from any problems she might cause

4. Has mild physical deformities (scar, missing finger or toe) that denote a tragic past but are not detrimental to his/her hotness (heck, they might even add hotness).

5. Is, by comparison, much more "awesome" or stronger than other characters.

6. Looks young, even if he/she isn't young

7. Is a mixed breed of WHATEVER and gets all of the pros and none of the cons of either breed (I am so SICK and TIRED of running across dampers or damphyrs or whatever that are half vampire and they are not scared of the friggin' sun and yet they're half-human and they can't DIE!)

8. Is bi-sexual (Mary Sues tend to seduce almost anyone they run across... they gotta have the motivation!)

9. If a villain seems Mary-Sueish, it must replace the main villain or be the main villain's love attraction, defeat the hero easily, or be more powerful than the main villain. If not, it doesn't qualify as a Mary Sue.

10. Does not have any noteworthy flaws, be they physical, psychological or emotional flaws (economy doesn't really matter. A type of Mary Sue exists called the "CindeSue", a character that is so beautiful and so privileged that it comes through even if it was raised by rats in the sewers).

Anyway, that's all I have to say for now. Anyone ever written a Mary Sue before?

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