Abortion?

[bookworm51485]

So basically as long as I said, "Okay to each their own." my opinions would NOT be full of crap and not absurd? 

Well then perhaps I should just say this so that you all can stop insulting me, regardless of how backhanded or underlined they are. 

Honestly, you're all calling my opinions absurd because I would VOTE "NO" against abortion?  Wow, somehow, I can live with that.

No not really, you can say whatever you want and believe whatever you want. Just like I can feel that your full of crap. That's what's called an opinion, like you've been bringing up repeatedly.

[Guest Adara]

As I said, I can live with that. So now we can continue the discussion that doesn't involve what you think about me personally? Oh good.

[bookworm51485]

As I said, I can live with that. So now we can continue the discussion that doesn't involve what you think about me personally? Oh good.

I really haven't made any comments about you personally. I really don't know anything about you personally, so I really couldn't comment. BUT as I said, I think that your opinion on this matter is limited and quite ridiculous. But if you choose to take it as a personal attack, then whatever. I can't control what you think.

[Guest Adara]

I really haven't made any comments about you personally. I really don't know anything about you personally, so I really couldn't comment. BUT as I said, I think that your opinion on this matter is limited and quite ridiculous. But if you choose to take it as a personal attack, then whatever. I can't control what you think.

This is what I find ridiculous about your assetment of me; you say my opinion is limited, or rather YOU FEEL it is, but in reality, you're very incorrect.

Have I gotten pregnant? Yep, did, two years ago. Did I plan on it? Nope. I wasn't planning on any children until about five years into my marriage. Was I faced with a decision to keep or put my child up for adoption? Yep, I decided to keep my baby, as adoption or abortion were not an option for me. Was I scared as all hell that something would go wrong, and that I wouldn't be a good parent? Damn straight. I don't know any parent who's not.

Now, if you wish to continue to believe that my opinions on THIS topic are LIMITED, then please do so. I'll just simply think you're as narrow minded as you think me to be.

[StoryJunkie]

you know, when you say someone is "full of crap" I interpret that as a personal insult. Bookworm, you've called me names on this board as well, so don't pretend you're innocent. "I hate all you pro-lifers" I think is how you put it. (I can go back through the thread to look it up if you want) You know, some people put freedom of speech before good manners and common sense, and I think that you are one of those people. While you enjoy the respect of others for your views, I find that the way you express them are abrasive.

We all understand that this is a touchy subject, and as far as I can see, only Ectrae and I have brought up the point that men have no say in their own genetic material which is developing in some woman to whom at one time or other there was a sexual attachment of some sort. Men don't seem to share the same legal rights as women in this area, and I find that kind of...hm, what's the word? not prejudiced or segregation or ...well, I don't know what the word is that I'm searching for.

But in the meantime, is there no way you could find a way to say what you want without bulldosing over someone else's ideals?

Contrary? Hippocritical? What's the word? (Now this is going to drive me crazy for at least two minutes!)

[Guest echtrae]

Story, it's been two hours. Did you figure out the word you were looking for?

[Guest Adara]

Perhaps it's one of these: Unfair, One-sided, insensative?

I wasn't certain.

I do feel would-be father's are just cast aside in this subject. I think there are rules protecting a man's rights if he is in fact married to the woman he impregnated. I'm not sure though.

I feel they should have some say. But I think this is a matter that should be discussed before any one couple actually has sex. Perhaps something like a prenup should be implimented? I know it sounds silly but I think it could work.

What do you all think?

[Guest echtrae]

Off-hand, I think something like that would occur probably about as often as prenups do at this time...not too often.

I mean, reflecting upon the relationships that I've had over the years. I can't imagine too many instances where such a discussion would likely have come up before the intimate activity. Most of the girls that I remember would rather have the entertainment and not ever worry about such responsible discussions. Or if they did, they certainly weren't interested in dicussing them with me. Not sure why.

The issue that I've always seen with many laws that get enacted, they forget to try to maintain a balance. The congress critters are so eager to please somebody, that they don't take a moment to contemplate the ramifications of their actions. This action frequently results in somebody either getting trod upon or forgotten. In this case, the father.

[StoryJunkie]

well, that's the point, isn't it? the legality of it? I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure there are people more clever than you or I that have debated this very issue, and for a longer amount of time. I'm sure the "rights" of everyone has been duely considered. The voiceless potential fell victim.

A wise man once said: "When you hear people speak of "rights", there Satan* is close by." Now why is that, I wonder? For it encompasses a great deal within our society. Unless our thinking is upside-down. We allow fear and loathing to dictate our wants and needs. We are put into a position where we must judge ourselves and our futures. We forget who we are and what our dreams are about, how we look at ourselves and others, the labels we give one another. To have "rights" means there was a wrong. It would be better to say: "I want JUSTICE!" rather than "my rights". That would be more correct. And then, all falls into place, all situations are encompassed and considered. For you will notice that "Justice" is not preceeded by ownership. It is for all.

Perhaps this is the word we all need, although I don't think it was the one that was driving me crazy.

*for those of you who don't believe in the personification of evil, just think of it as a personification of evil. Or turbulence, or some kind of disturbance in "The Force". (Like the dark side of duct tape)

Story, it's been two hours. Did you figure out the word you were looking for? 

No, but it did drive me crazy for two minutes.

[Guest echtrae]

Justice is an excellent word. I have always liked it. Another word that I've always liked is balance.

[StoryJunkie]

as opposed to "equality".

Ah, the dreaming intellect of man...

[Guest echtrae]

I've found that equality tends to be rather subjective. Balance is of a far more objective connotation.

[StoryJunkie]

It makes sense in a world so full of differences. A child can by no means be equal to a man.

[bookworm51485]

This is what I find ridiculous about your assetment of me; you say my opinion is limited, or rather YOU FEEL it is, but in reality, you're very incorrect.

Have I gotten pregnant? Yep, did, two years ago. Did I plan on it? Nope. I wasn't planning on any children until about five years into my marriage. Was I faced with a decision to keep or put my child up for adoption? Yep, I decided to keep my baby, as adoption or abortion were not an option for me. Was I scared as all hell that something would go wrong, and that I wouldn't be a good parent? Damn straight. I don't know any parent who's not.

Now, if you wish to continue to believe that my opinions on THIS topic are LIMITED, then please do so. I'll just simply think you're as narrow minded as you think me to be.

Your view is too black and white. Your making statements that are absolutes not taking into consideration that every person's situation is different. What happened to you is what happened to you. Your life is your life. Your life is not the same as any other persons and what lead you to make your choice can not and should not apply to any other person. I don't see how my saying that is narrow minded. It's ridiculous that you think to apply your situation to every other woman who's every contemplated what to do with an unexpected, unwanted pregnancy.

[bookworm51485]

you know, when you say someone is "full of crap" I interpret that as a personal insult. Bookworm, you've called me names on this board as well, so don't pretend you're innocent. "I hate all you pro-lifers" I think is how you put it. (I can go back through the thread to look it up if you want) You know, some people put freedom of speech before good manners and common sense, and I think that you are one of those people. While you enjoy the respect of others for your views, I find that the way you express them are abrasive.

We all understand that this is a touchy subject, and as far as I can see, only Ectrae and I have brought up the point that men have no say in their own genetic material which is developing in some woman to whom at one time or other there was a sexual attachment of some sort. Men don't seem to share the same legal rights as women in this area, and I find that kind of...hm, what's the word? not prejudiced or segregation or ...well, I don't know what the word is that I'm searching for.

But in the meantime, is there no way you could find a way to say what you want without bulldosing over someone else's ideals?

Contrary? Hippocritical? What's the word? (Now this is going to drive me crazy for at least two minutes!)

Well that's you. This discussion is on a specific topic, on which she's given a very definite opinion and in response I say that opinion is crap and in terms of that she's full of crap. I didn't say she's full of crap in general, because like I said, I really don't know her. I figured it was obvious that I was specifically referring to this discussion and if you chose to take it as a general statement, oh well.

BTW when have I insulted you? Saying that I hate pro-lifers isn't an insult, it's how I feel and I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to feel however I choose. If I'd said sometimes along the lines of you being this biggest moron I'd ever encountered (and before someone gets offended, I'm not saying that) then I think you could take that as an insult. I don't pretend to be innocent. When I insult someone I usually make it obvious and I make no attempts to hide it. But I see no personal insult in what I said.

Anyways on the topic of men's rights. I had this discussion on another board and in my opinion the man should be allowed to give input but the final decision should be with the woman because it is her body. And until someone figures out a way for a man to get pregnant (maybe scientists should get cracking), I think it should remain a woman's decision because it is her body.

[StoryJunkie]

If anyone here who advocates pro-choice has EVER seen an abortion performed, you would NEVER choose it. Not only is it bloody and cold, it is a procedure that many women who submit to it don't realize the full consequences. Infertility, perforated uterus. It would be better to remove the entire organ than to have that done to your body! To hear the people performing these abortions, who are so innured to this procedure, they use very dehumanizing language to describe what they are doing. You are just a piece of meat to them, a means of making a living. Do you think abortionists care about your situation? Are these people with whom you become life-long friends and sit down to tea in the afternoon? They are people you never want to see ever again.

Tell me I'm full of crap.

[bookworm51485]

If anyone here who advocates pro-choice has EVER seen an abortion performed, you would NEVER choose it. Not only is it bloody and cold, it is a procedure that many women who submit to it don't realize the full consequences. Infertility, perforated uterus. It would be better to remove the entire organ than to have that done to your body! To hear the people performing these abortions, who are so innured to this procedure, they use very dehumanizing language to describe what they are doing. You are just a piece of meat to them, a means of making a living. Do you think abortionists care about your situation? Are these people with whom you become life-long friends and sit down to tea in the afternoon? They are people you never want to see ever again.

Tell me I'm full of crap.

It's absurd to make a statement like that. YOU might never choose it, but you can't say the same for others. There are many people I know of who know all the facts about abortion, more than I even realized there were and they still STRONGLY advocate the pro-choice stance. You're doing the same thing that Adara is doing and trying to attribute your choices and your beliefs to other people, people that you really don't know anything about.

And since you asked nicely, "Your full of crap'

[StoryJunkie]

It was a conditional sentence, and therefore, not absurd.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

BTW when have I insulted you? Saying that I hate pro-lifers isn't an insult, it's how I feel and I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to feel however I choose. If I'd said sometimes along the lines of you being this biggest moron I'd ever encountered (and before someone gets offended, I'm not saying that) then I think you could take that as an insult. I don't pretend to be innocent. When I insult someone I usually make it obvious and I make no attempts to hide it. But I see no personal insult in what I said.

To say you hate pro-lifers, you're making a general statement that spreads to all who identify with that category. It is, very much, akin to a person saying they hate all women, or hate all people who voted for Bush. By saying you hate all pro-lifers, you are insulting the group as a whole (i.e., Adara and StoryJunkie).

As for the "you're opinion is full of crap" statement, that's like writing a flame to a fic you don't like because the author wrote this pairing and not the one you like, or ending a fight with "fuck you" simply because you have nothing better to say. So say someone's personal opinion is crap is a direct, personal insult to them. You are telling this person that their thoughts on a matter are invalid because you don't like them. Adara stated very valid reasons for being against abortion. You however, responded to said reasons in a childish manner, which makes your argument rather flimsy at best.

[The Thundercloud]

I am a christian and for me it is given that abortion should be allowed. All this talk about abortion is murder is as far as I am concerned just smoke screens from pro-lifers. Woman who honestly want to become a mother do sometimes miscarry. There are accidents that makes the woman lose the child. My thought is that you have very weak faith in God if you think that he don't takes step to deal with these situations.

If you agree to this...then why would abortion be different? Actually I can give a reason why it is different; the fetus is just a couple of cells in the beginning. How could the soul fold into something that is so far from the finished result? If abortion happens in that time period I honestly don't think that God need to do a thing, it just a fetus that is rejected. Yet even if it happens later I trust God to deal with the situation.

Yet the most important thing is not this, but rather that we should not judge. It beats me totally how pro-lifers can read the direct command to not judge in the bible and run away and do exactly this. The highest possible degree of hypocrisy.

If the pro-lifers took their responsibility as christians they should present their opinnion about the matter, but not try stop abortions or to silence the many christians that think abortion is acceptable.

There are many ways that people try to confuse the issue. Sure people should use protection so they don't need to do an abortion. Who can object to that? Yet I can't see that it changes the situation about abortion. The cause of the many abortions are people that are too shamed to speak about sexuality. It is not some media conspiracy that makes people have sexual urges, rather God invented us like that....and narrow minded people pro-lifers that can't stand to hear the word sex gave us the rate of abortions that we have today when they supress all talk about sex, nudity and proper protection. The devil probably totally dig the activities of the pro-lifers....

[Nanaea]

Just to play the devil's advocate....

I get where you're coming from and I totally agree with you about the hypocrisy of some christians. To be honest, that's my biggest beef with christianity as a whole. But to lump all pro-lifers together into one stereotypical category and say that it's because they are sexually repressed is like saying all blondes are dumb, or all black males are gangsters, it does the entire group a disservice and is not an accurate statement. Moreover, it's obviously untrue as we have a handful of pro-lifers right here on AFF and I seriously doubt that they'd be here if they couldn't stand to hear the word sex.

*Thundering Moral of the Story voice over.* "BEWARE the general statement."

The problem with this topic is that most (see, I'm not saying all) people can not sperate the issue from their religious/spiritual/moral beliefs.

That's where respect comes in. I can respect StoryJunkie and Adara's opinions on the matter while agreeing to disagree with them. I don't have to name-call or put them down to do so either. I can even sympathize with their view-point, without sacrificing my own. After all, I believe it was Aristotle who said that "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

[StoryJunkie]

Um, I would like to point out that the issue isn't about who is pro-life or pro-choice, but whether it is legal, which, as far as I am concerned, have made my views fairly clear. (coming through the filter of my garbled mind). I like what Thundercloud said

Yet the most important thing is not this, but rather that we should not judge.

It is a good reminder for all of us. And while the point is well brought up about taking all precautions, yet still becoming pregnant and having abortion as an option, then that's between the patient and doctor, not the legal system, as far as I'm concerned, but to use it as an ONLY means of contraception, or to correct a stupid judgement, I really would think that behavior crosses the line. Think about it. How many women do you know who have had an abortion, used it as a means because all other means failed?

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

And while the point is well brought up about taking all precautions, yet still becoming pregnant and having abortion as an option, then that's between the patient and doctor, not the legal system, as far as I'm concerned, but to use it as an ONLY means of contraception, or to correct a stupid judgement, I really would think that behavior crosses the line. Think about it. How many women do you know who have had an abortion, used it as a means because all other means failed?

Definitely. While I have the utmost respect for a woman who chooses to have an abortion after taking the proper level of precautions against pregnancy (i.e. birth control pills, condoms and the like). However, when a woman decides to abuse her rights by using abortion and plan A, it grates me. Not only does the act disgust me, but with every woman that treats abortions in such a way, more fuel gets added to the fire that is Anti-Abortion legislation. These women, while the minority, are launched into the public eye and are treated as if they are the norm. Therefore, people are taught that women who have abortions are irresponsible and can't handle having certain freedoms.

And if they take away abortion rights, what's next? Birth control pills?

More and more I find that American society is slipping backward instead of advancing. With every little freedom that is taken away, it sets the stage for full on rewind, and it scares me.

Another issue I have with the whole "Abortion First" deal, is that birth control pills are SO MUCH CHEAPER then Abortion. It's like a good insurance plan, yeah, the money trickles out slowly, but it's better then having to fork over 400 bucks 15 times (and people, you know that anyone who uses abortions like condoms will end up with that many abortions... or go infertile...).

And about that whole infertility thing... yeah. There's a chance that, with every abortion you have, that you will be left sterile. Really, you might as well just get your uterus removed if you're gonna get THAT many abortions.

Abortions, like condoms and the pill, are for people who don't want kids NOW, but DO want them at some point in the future. If you're gonna be using abortions all over the bloody place, might as well just go get sterilized.

[bookworm51485]

It was a conditional sentence, and therefore, not absurd.

I'd say it's pretty absurd.

[bookworm51485]

To say you hate pro-lifers, you're making a general statement that spreads to all who identify with that category. It is, very much, akin to a person saying they hate all women, or hate all people who voted for Bush. By saying you hate all pro-lifers, you are insulting the group as a whole (i.e., Adara and StoryJunkie).

As for the "you're opinion is full of crap" statement, that's like writing a flame to a fic you don't like because the author wrote this pairing and not the one you like, or ending a fight with "fuck you" simply because you have nothing better to say. So say someone's personal opinion is crap is a direct, personal insult to them. You are telling this person that their thoughts on a matter are invalid because you don't like them. Adara stated very valid reasons for being against abortion. You however, responded to said reasons in a childish manner, which makes your argument rather flimsy at best.

Okay so according to your logic, sying I hate something is akin to an insult. Okay then I hate insects. So I guess I'm insulting them. And I hate onions, so I guess I'm insulting them too. Oh and I hate snow, so I guess I'm insulting that too. Okay, I'm glad you've enlightened me.

And as to the full of crap comment, that is nothing like a flame. I don't understand that logic at all. She made a blanket statement and I responded by saying that she's too determined to look at the world in black and white absolutes instead of the shades of gray that it is. She has a reason to feel the way she does for herself, but making a general statement like it's an absolute fact based on her personal experience and her personal beliefs that makes her full of crap in my opinion. And like I said, if you people choose to take it as a personal insult then that's on you. And I really don't want to hear that whole 'childish' argument. People throw that around way too much when they don't like what a person has to say and it gets old. Just like you say Adara argument is so 'valid', mine is just as valid. You've just chosen to disregard my points and fixate on one statement.