Community Discussion Requested

[Guest Jaxxy]

[...] I can also say that AS A MOD, if I find I cannot be objective and impartial in a particular for instance, I defer it to someone else. It's the only way to do it, really. So, for example, with some objections I've seen raised with Kip's story (and there really haven't been that many) because it's subject matter I find I cannot be objective about, inquiries have been sent to other mods to handle.

I wanted to poke my nose in here and say that it's true;

DemonGoddess061

does an incredible job of being impartial in her administrative duties, and, as anyone who's run any sort of board knows, this is rarely a picnic. When she can't, she does indeed pass it on -- with no fuss.

It's just so for me -- everything that gets done (or not) around the site ultimately associates with my name, so I do my best to emulate people like DG, who have developed a more advanced ability of separation than myself. Of course, she's

old

. :run like ass is on fire and hair is catching!:

I'm "a mess", as I've been told -- though, in the end, I

make

it be in a good way. Luckily, it's the end result that matters... freaking out at first is okay (she counsels herself)!

[Keith Inc.]

Agreed -- I think a good part of this problem is a measure of complacency in both some Readers'

and

Authors' behaviors. Certainly, Story-page Summaries, Codes, Ratings and Warnings need to best represent the key points of the Story (which

are

difficult to capture in a few words, to be sure), but also, Readers need to do more than skim what the Author has tried (presumably, their best) to communicate.

Oh, i hate writing summaries. I write a lot of fetish fiction, and those readers are very particular in what they want and what they don't want. If it's largely a Shrunken Women story, but there's one scene with Shrunken Men, the SW purists want to know not to waste there time. Which is hard to convey with the warning codes pulled from a list. I can't really indicate that it's 99% SW, 1% SM, but if i don't mention the SM, then i get hate on.

The warning codes in the summaries are not meant to be spoilers, or book reviews or those story graphs they taught us in English Lit, with an opening of Xenophilia, climaxing with Virgin Fisting, then unicorn/centaur 'shipping in the denoument.

The only thing you can really tell someone with the codes is: If you read this story, you will be faced with: male pregnancy, Chocolate dipping, bestiality, shrinking and MadScientist Intrusions.

Not necessarily all at once, not necessarily happening to any given character. If the topic concerns you, don't go in there.

I suppose one could go back into the summary and edit the codes for the ages of participants?

(ANAL (adult); FIST(teen))

But this gets back to trying to be all things for all people. Can we adequately summarize an entire story for every single demographic that might be offended?

[JayDee]

Chocolate dipping?

Also, Kip, Keith, Agaib - I agree wholeheartedly.

[Guest Jaxxy]

Also, Kip, Keith, Agaib - I agree wholeheartedly.

These are all just the point... unless I'm the one missing it.

What I was saying is that it would be good practice to write a more customized short summary

in

the Story's first chapter... you know, at the top. Much easier than trying to explain oneself fully with only the short area and a few codes.

Wouldn't be a hard rule, but it would reduce all of the

[Kip]

What I was saying is that it would be good practice to write a more customized short summary

in

the Story's first chapter... you know, at the top. Much easier than trying to explain oneself fully with only the short area and a few codes.

Jaxxy, as well as being a wonderful voice of reason, you are definitely inspired! I for one, will be adopting your suggestion about the customised summary with enthusiasm. In fact - why not write a first chapter as a preface - no actual story content, simply a longer explanation (along with any additional warnings) of the intended content? That way, a reader could open it with confidence that they aren't going to find themselves upset by something they don't feel ready to deal with... It has never been my intention to upset, only entertain.

I admit freely that I found (and find) it very hard to write a summary - how do you effectively describe what's in there, often when you don't know yourself where it's going to go, without totally ruining any element of suspense for the reader? Too much and there's no plot, too little and we might as well start every piece off by saying "Things happen. The end".

To luvinfanfic - just to confirm: you have heard from the author, and sorry, but I truly feel that we've covered all the relevant points by now. I really don't wish to waste anyone's time by raking over the coals. I would hope we can close this issue now, as the whole experience has been quite upsetting enough, my work is fiction however I am most assuredly quite real.

Naturally, should anyone have any new points to raise, then I will, of course, respond to them, and I'll continue to monitor the discussion boards whenever I am able.

Best wishes to all

Kip ('Purr)

[Keith Inc.]

These are all just the point... unless I'm the one missing it.

What I was saying is that it would be good practice to write a more customized short summary

in

the Story's first chapter... you know, at the top. Much easier than trying to explain oneself fully with only the short area and a few codes.

Wouldn't be a hard rule, but it would reduce all of the

Would it? Luvin has responded only to the summary. No entry to the story to read any of the chappies, or any author's notes, or any introductory expanded summary. it would have to be a hard rule and everyone would have to know about it, for it to reduce the pain and heartache.

Then again, so many people don't read the summaries, why wouldn't they just get into the habit of pouncing past the first chapter to get into the story its offensive self?

And still, the point of the warnings should be sufficient for the purpose. The summary and Warnings aren't supposed to replicate the story in micro, just to raise interest and steer people towards or away from excitements or sticky ickiness, right?

And hell, i've been reluctant to even fully list all the fandoms in the disclaimer at times, out of a fear that it telegraphs the twist-ending. I don't like the idea of taking time explaining how i don't support the language, violence, moral turpitude, rapes that follow, or the misogyny of the antagonist, or even identifying which hateful bastard in the story IS the antagonist...

It'll just become too much like work to post a story, taking care to warn off and justify everything in it that might offend (which we CAN NOT do. I've posted stories and gotten thanx for including fetish elements i was not aware of. If i can turn them on by accident, be sure we can offend by accident.)

If Kip or anyone else wants to take it on board as a suggestion, of course, more power to them. But anything remotely like a rule, however soft and slow, seems likely to cause more hate and discontent than it's likely to alleviate.

[Helluin]

I'm not a lawyer, but a little bit of internet research suggests that you're safe, and this person is out of date.

The U.S. Supreme Court struck down "virtual porn" as a category of kiddie porn in 2002, in Ashcroft v. The Free Speech Coalition. In striking down CPPA, the Supreme Court determined that fiction (or other pornography not involving real, actual children) did not qualify as child pornography, whether or not it was in questionable taste. The only exception is images so graphic that you can't tell the difference between computer-generated images of children being sexually abused and a photograph of same. Clearly, erotic fanfiction doesn't reach that level of realism.

The Court reaffirmed the illegality of pornography, in which an actual child appears, but said “virtual” pornography is legal. The Supreme Court reasoned that real children are not harmed with a virtual child. Writing for the majority, Justice Kennedy said, “The government must not suppress lawful speech as a means to suppress unlawful speech.” The state cannot “reduce the adult population … to reading only what is fit for children,” he added.

Source: Child Pornography-- Virtually Legal? on FOX news.

A bit of browsing found similar rulings hold true in Canada.

In fact I've been frustrated by AFF's sign-in splash page, because when CPPA was still in effect, I don't think it would've been legal, and now that CPPA has been struck down, it's just a hassle. It's been six years now, ya know? But I understand you're trying to be careful.

(Personally I'd prefer seeing a simple Safesurf warning system, and a "Warning: this page may sexually explicit content! By clicking Yes you confirm that you are of legal age to view mature content." dialog box that would pop up each time someone navigates in from an external website. That should trigger net nanny software and parental controls with a minimum of hassle for us.)

So as far as depicting sex with minors, as long as it's fictional, you're on safe if prurient grounds. Now, copyright owners could tell you to cease and desist because they don't want their work used that way, but that's not quite the same problem.

EDIT:

DURR, somehow I missed the Flounce Mail, and didn't realize that the initial emailer had already left the site. Well, the above should make you relax re: the legality of allowing such fiction, although I can't help ya with copyright violations (a problem with fanfic that gnaws on my conscience, but only to the extent that I tend to stick to fanfic genres where I know the copyright owners don't mind in the slightest) or RPS issues!

Edited August 26, 2008 by Helluin

[Guest Jaxxy]

Jaxxy, as well as being a wonderful voice of reason, you are definitely inspired! I for one, will be adopting your suggestion about the customised summary with enthusiasm. In fact - why not write a first chapter as a preface - no actual story content, simply a longer explanation (along with any additional warnings) of the intended content? [...]

Okay, after I finished being dead of blushing-ness (thank you very much,

Kip

-- I'm an idea man, not so much a detail one -- or man), I wanted to say that the Preface idea is a good one -- some Authors will see the value (and do-ability), others won't, some Readers will appreciate it, others will say, "omg ur waste my tiem weres chap 1 i whant 2 c it furst". So, another Authors'-choice kind of rule of thumb, nothing that'll be forced (in the end, the Author is largely responsible for the effects of their Stories, so it's got to be up to them.)

It's a most advisable idea for people who have Story content that they feel might be extremely controversial in nature... probably not needed (and might serve only to spoil and exasperate) in your basic AFF publishings.

[DemonGoddess]

d'oh! Forgot about Safesurf...

I'll have to get that done at some point for AFF

[Guest Jaxxy]

Would it? Luvin has responded only to the summary. No entry to the story to read any of the chappies, or any author's notes, or any introductory expanded summary. it would have to be a hard rule and everyone would have to know about it, for it to reduce the pain and heartache.

I think it would. Reduce, not completely eradicate; Earth isn't run that way. (Please read all of my post as purely hypothetical, for the moment...)

Put something like, "Controversial content, Explanation in Preface" in the summary area. I bet "CONTRO" could be added as a commonly use-able Story code, or some similar wordlet. So, say the summary reads, "CONTRO: explanation within", or just "CONTRO", without further explanation. With the first, there's a double-warning, and the second, at least one clear one (if we don't count the one on the damned entry page!) Readers will be braced, to whatever extent the Author (and site) afforded, to see something that might break their brains, if they continue.

If they

do

read on, they did so after being expressly told to run away (which was a

favor

; the Author was not obligated to do any of this), well before they went and stuck their heads into the microwave. There'd be no plausible way the Author could be harassed, and the "affronted party" would be closing in on Troll-dom.

At that point, any ensuing "pain and heartache" will be

clearly

the Reader's doing, just as if they'd purposely, knowingly set themselves on fire. That was their

choice

, as they knew what fire does, not the fault of the blowtorch's maker, who plastered the thing with "DANGER!" stickers, and could be seen as them purposely having upset themselves just to cause a problem. (Trollish again.)

I know how I must sound, but the beauty of it won't be only on the Authors's side, but also the Readers', because they will have been given ample opportunity to avoid the whole to-do (the agreement to reasonably police oneself is in the TOS already). Add an explanation in a Preface, one chapter or just a paragraph, and if drama ensues, the Author can pretty much sit back and giggle at the silly.

No, everyone doesn't instantly know about anything, of course... it is learned through living. (Unless someone here

wants

to go mass-email a couple million readers...?) B) A hard rule about this isn't do-able on many levels -- your post delineates one reason why. Right or wrong, people would be seriously cheesed off. Better they learn the practice's benefits through observation, like all the rest of fanfic tradition was... it's natural to the phenomenon.

(

That

could be put in the TOS; "Observe all Story warnings the same way in which you observed this website's blanket warning:

Any

Material May Be Offensive" etc. etc... hmmm! Alongside the "CONTRO"... teh hawt!)

Then again, so many people don't read the summaries, why wouldn't they just get into the habit of pouncing past the first chapter to get into the story its offensive self?

That'll always be the case, but we can't do

nothing

based on what unmindful people might or might not do. If people did that, then starving one's dog would be legal, because we'd not make laws, seeing as we could never save every last unlucky pet. Unmindful (I wax buddhist!) people fall into obvious holes all the time -- we all did, as children. It's just being human... to an extent.

Career

unmindfulness... well, those guys'll just keep getting hurt, and you're right, there's just nothing to do about that -- some people are just gluttons for punishment. Missing a warning

unintentionally

isn't a "fault", but it is the Reader's onus to really

look

. If the Reader

is

looking where they're going,

and

the Author put up something to see... no heartache at all, everyone goes their own way. But fools are fools, at the grocery store or online. It is never possible to save everyone, but it's always worth trying to save someone, when a practice

is

simple enough to be easily implemented (and I'm just thinking a-type here, because I think it may be... I'm hoping you guys'll catch any holes in my thinking).

In either case, if "CONTRO" (to whichever extent)

has

been applied, the Author is automatically freed from quite a bit of grief. If he had a deeper summary, or a "CONTRO" code up, or

both

, and these above-and-beyond efforts were

still

ignored? He would be fully within his rights to say, "READ THE FIRST LINE, you ridicu-tard, not my fault, it's

right there!

" to any admonishers... and have a chortle at the clown.

Finally, we'd have a position an Author and an Archivist can firmly stand upon, without having to start calling each other criminals or threatening or digging up legal links...

And still, the point of the warnings should be sufficient for the purpose. The summary and Warnings aren't supposed to replicate the story in micro, just to raise interest and steer people towards or away from excitements or sticky ickiness, right?

Right, but apparently, they're not quite there.

Mostly, I see the great opportunity in all of this, because we

need

a touch more "due diligence", especially if a teeny-tiny new Story code can ease the problems inevitably caused by

all

highly controversial Stories. If I am ever brought before a judge, every

drop

of show-able due diligence will matter, so the easy ones need to be sucked up pretty much on sight. An extra-super-duper warning-ing Story could possibly replace total contro-fic sequestering, or making it Darkfic (which I think we've decided it isn't), as well. Lots of birds will go down with this sort of boulder.

And hell, i've been reluctant to even fully list all the fandoms in the disclaimer at times, out of a fear that it telegraphs the twist-ending. I don't like the idea of taking time explaining how i don't support the language, violence, moral turpitude, rapes that follow, or the misogyny of the antagonist, or even identifying which hateful bastard in the story IS the antagonist... [...]

Hey, you know, what I'm saying is all optional... not at all something you will be penalized for

not

doing, merely suggestions to make everyone's life a little easier. Either way is fine to me; the Author is the first one who is going to get kicked in the head if the Reader doesn't think they were specific enough. (Okay, so I will too... eh well.)

And, don't forget, poor, blinded-by-this-post

Keith Inc.

, I'm talking mostly about really-really controversial things... not "gay is wrong" or "he killed a kitten" or "Kakashi raped Naruto... again". Somehow, things like cursing, violence, and rape are just

not

controversial anymore!

(Which is the POINT! In a decade, "pedophilia" (SIC) won't be, either. Count on it.)

If Kip or anyone else wants to take it on board as a suggestion, of course, more power to them. But anything remotely like a rule, however soft and slow, seems likely to cause more hate and discontent than it's likely to alleviate.

That's why I said it wouldn't be a hard rule!

I meant a "rule" at all. Just a recommended practice.

Hey,

Keith Inc.

(and of course everyone, but it looks like I'm harassing

him

), thank you for being this springboard for me... it helped me think a lot. If it looked like I was pissed or anything, I truly wasn't... my mind was just really spurred into action by

Keith Inc.

's concerns. Thank you!

[Guest Jaxxy]

I'm not a lawyer, but a little bit of internet research suggests that you're safe, and this person is out of date. [...]

That's as far as I knew, honestly, but I wasn't sure if it was completely current... thanks,

Helluin

, it made me feel a bit safer to be reminded in black-and-white.

In fact I've been frustrated by AFF's sign-in splash page, because when CPPA was still in effect, I don't think it would've been legal, and now that CPPA has been struck down, it's just a hassle. It's been six years now, ya know? But I understand you're trying to be careful.

Yes, that is the bulk of it -- that Age Verifier (which we are figuring a good way to replace... time and money being the problem, as usual) might be our hugest chunk of obvious "due diligence". It shouldn't be a total hassle, though... do you clear your cookies very often?

(Personally I'd prefer seeing a simple

Safesurf

warning system, and a "Warning: this page may sexually explicit content! By clicking Yes you confirm that you are of legal age to view mature content." dialog box that would pop up each time someone navigates in from an external website. That should trigger net nanny software and parental controls with a minimum of hassle for us.)

Exactly. Honest-to-Vash, I've been pushing to get a Staff dialogue on ideas just like that going since last week. (Time and money, time and money...)

So as far as depicting sex with minors, as long as it's fictional, you're on safe if prurient grounds. Now, copyright owners could tell you to cease and desist because they don't want their work used that way, but that's not quite the same problem.

That... is a whole 'nother bucket o' posts!

:we need an emoticon for "sigh":

EDIT:

DURR, somehow I missed the Flounce Mail, and didn't realize that the initial emailer had already left the site. Well, the above should make you relax re: the legality of allowing such fiction, although I can't help ya with copyright violations (a problem with fanfic that gnaws on my conscience, but only to the extent that I tend to stick to fanfic genres where I know the copyright owners don't mind in the slightest) or RPS issues!

:we need an emoticon for "exhausted whimper" too: I knoe... I knoe! M-march on, fanfic soldiers...

!

[Helluin]

Clear da cooookies....

Yes, but *blasphemy* I don't use AFF.net all the time. Sometimes it lets me back in without the splash screen, and sometimes it comes up every visit. Less often the latter, nowadays, so I am a bad Beta Tester and can't pinpoint when/how/why. Anyway, 'tis only a minor nuisance, although I confess I have not always entered accurate info there. Naughty.

So easy to toss out suggestions when yer not actually on-staff, yep yep! But there's time/money plus ten jillion back-seat drivers called "members"....

[DemonGoddess]

Clear da cooookies....

Yes, but *blasphemy* I don't use AFF.net all the time. Sometimes it lets me back in without the splash screen, and sometimes it comes up every visit. Less often the latter, nowadays, so I am a bad Beta Tester and can't pinpoint when/how/why. Anyway, 'tis only a minor nuisance, although I confess I have not always entered accurate info there. Naughty.

So easy to toss out suggestions when yer not actually on-staff, yep yep! But there's time/money plus ten jillion back-seat drivers called "members"....

And let's not forget....

stretchedtothinatthemoment type people too.

No biggie, much of this, like the safesurf is actually on a to do list (safesurf got added today because I SPACED it dammit), but got a couple HUGE projects going concurrently, one should be resolving itself in short order here in the next week or two, the other is of course the cleanup.

[Psychostorm]

(only read the first page)

I think whats really vulgar is an inflexible objective concept of morality. This leads to people who climb up on their moral high horse and get involved in things that don't concern them simply because "its wrong". "Its wrong" is such a disgustingly ignorant phrase in my opinion.

The one who sent that complaint is a dumbass. She/he didn't even read the story for christ sake, there wasn't any molestation or rape taking place(yet...), just a guy who accidentally blew his seed onto his son. Also I'm sure what ever athorities this person reports this too won't give a shit because they have real issues to deal with. I mean seriously, I'm pretty sure that since hentaipalm.com is still around with all the underage anime chicks getting plowed there, then AFF has nothing to worry about. If I remember correctly only two cases have come up about this sort of thing and neither time was the guy convicted, the court saying that the applicable laws were too ambiguious.

Also its a shame that the name of the person who wrote that email was omitted. I'm dedicating the next chapter of my fic to him/her and having Shinji rape some toddlers.

[Guest Jaxxy]

[...] "Its wrong" is such a disgustingly ignorant phrase in my opinion.

Isn't it strange? I don't know if anyone else feels completely baffled and nonplussed by things so commonplace as this argument, but I really do. (Especially when I've just woken from a deep nap, like now -- my mind is reduced to its basic-most parts, and I won't say that my thoughts are

truer

, but they certainly

feel

more "in synch" with the Universe... things are more simple, even elementary.)

I can more than live with people disagreeing -- I believe

la difference

is another "mother of invention", right up there with "necessity". But I am human, and it affects me when I am intentionally shamed with the holy grail of "It's Wrong!"-- both out in public, where I

must

hold my tongue, and in private, where it's still the same, but I'm alone. That makes me feel personally threatened, frightened, and disheartened. I guess people see I'm a gentle person, and that, instead of appreciating it (or, if they "don't like me", just leaving it be), it is played upon.

What's funny about

that

is the unspoken rule that I am forbidden to speak for myself, itself. I feel that the emails I've gotten, and some borderline public bashings I've received, aren't fair, or warranted, or even logical. More, being in my position, people

know

I won't "mouth off", or post the emoticons I feel best suit my displeasure, because I am careful about how my behavior reflects on this website. Even though I don't ever believe escalation to be the right path, my ensuing sense of injustice, feeling so imprisoned, is strong.

It's nothing less than a crying shame that so many ugly things come from clashing points of view, when it's actually a wonderful opportunity to grow, learn, and come to appreciate one another. But I think I will use my right to speak, after all, and make the most of the opportunity... I do work pretty hard to make sure we can, and with any luck, my practicing of these rights will drive my personal belief in it home. (Not to mention, I'm

very

uncomfortable with people claiming that I am shaky in my personal convictions, and know it's "bad" on some level.)

Quite right,

Psychostorm

. People who speak down, and as if they

could

possibly ever personally know ultimate right and wrong, set off alarms in my head. Big-time. It's unnatural, counter-intuitive, and egotistical to think a soul, in this human incarnation, could fully understand the will of something such as God -- by its own definition, God is something so much greater an entity than we are, that his/her/its "will" would be beyond our ken.

None of these ways of thinking -- including the notion that we can do good by way of harm (within the same breath we all-but-picket for

avoiding

harm) --

compute

with me, in the slightest. So, for the record, I'll more clearly reiterate that I believe, with no faltering, in our need for ultimate freedom in fiction; that I am

very

angry with this hypocrisy, though I will not act upon it; and, I will add that I --

personally

-- find this type of behavior to be repugnant, questionable, and criminally antagonistic. I'd say "inexcusable", but it is my nature to hope.

[...]I'm pretty sure that since hentaipalm.com is still around will all the underage anime chicks getting plowed there, then AFF has nothing to worry about. If I remember correctly only two cases have come up about this sort of thing and neither time was the guy convicted, the court saying that the applicable laws were too ambiguious.

Seems right to me. Also, with things like xtube.com, that just anyone can waltz right into (seriously, check it out, if you don't mind graphic real person fuckage), you'd think we were

way

down the list.

Also its a shame that the name of the person who wrote that email was omitted. I'm dedicating the next chapter of my fic to him/her and having Shinji rape some toddlers.

That's just one reason why the identity

was

protected -- not that I have a problem with your reaction; the letter

was

provoking. As it is, a few people have mentioned that it was wrong to share the letter at all. I hope the people who are dissapointed in me can take (

positive

) note of what you've said here. With your example, they can hopefully see the good, however small, I'm actually after -- for

both

"sides" (a.k.a. humankind).

Publicly posting private material isn't something I'm "okay" with. But,

in this case

, I felt forced to do it (which is arguably the result of further manipulation). It is critical to show the community

exactly

-- not my personal approximation of -- what the weather is, and I didn't want to "spin" what was written me. That would have been unjust, and, more dangerously for us, connotative of infinite ulterior motives I could be speculated to have concerning my duty (don't laugh -- it's out there, and how).

Still, if anyone was

truly

hurt by what I did, I am deeply regretful for it. It was not done lightly, and I do not defend it as a common practice.

[Guest Jaxxy]

And let's not forget....

stretchedtothinatthemoment type people too.

[...]

I was going to say something like that,

DemonGoddess061

, but I was so busy that I forgot!

[Keith Inc.]

That'll always be the case, but we can't do nothing based on what unmindful people might or might not do.

That's just it. I'm not advocating 'doing nothing.' The site already does something. I think that's quite fucking sufficient for a society pretending to be an enlightened one. The problems we have with readers or non-reading reviewers ignoring or skipping the warnings will not be improved by adding more warnings. Pretty much by definition.

That said, "CONTRO:explanation within" seems like an intelligent way to do what i maintain is not necessary to do. Minimal change to the programming, one additional step for the author, burden of conscience upon the reader.

The definition of the "CONTRO:See Chap1" code will need to address the level of controversy intended. Not just, as you say, because it's in the headlines or the Supreme Court at the time of writing, but because it stretches an already elastic envelope to the brink with content, mood or participants that offer the extremeness of squicking. Bestiality would be on that list, pedophilia.

I'd need to add a Xenophilia discussion to my Lamia, to be certain. The vore. Maybe the MadScientist porn... And all Bible fanfic, just because the Faithful do not understand the point of fanfic. ( http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/sig...i?as7gp9&1)

Hey,

Keith Inc.

(and of course everyone, but it looks like I'm harassing

him

), thank you for being this springboard for me... it helped me think a lot. If it looked like I was pissed or anything, I truly wasn't...

Thanx. And while i'm willing to argue about nearly anything, i usually don't truly take offense until blood floes. Just exchanging opinions and gently exploring the fact that everyone but me is wrong.

[Guest Zyx]

Read the first page and even that was way too much for me. It's bad enough asswipes like that rule the world, let us at least have our fiction. I mean seriously: anyone with an open mind will admit it would be possible to have a normal relationship with someone under 18. Yet it's illigal because we find the risk is to great. I can live with that because I'm aware there are in fact some crazy assholes out there, and even some dumb assholes who don't mean no harm. This does not mean the entire concept is wrong. And I'm not even talking about sexuality yet, so far I've just been talking about romance. Because it might actually make sense to wait until someone likes sex before trying it. Still doesn't mean it's wrong to have sex with a 12 year old. It just means most of us are sick fucks who can't handle it.

So: no more crusading against fiction please.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Zyx

[Guest Jaxxy]

That's just it. I'm not advocating 'doing nothing.' The site already does something.

We do. Sometimes two!

I think that's quite fucking sufficient for a society pretending to be an enlightened one. The problems we have with readers or non-reading reviewers ignoring or skipping the warnings will not be improved by adding more warnings. Pretty much by definition.

True, but, realistically, if 5% of users notice the all-capped warning, that's ~60,000 people a month (presuming each one has come across one CONTRO fic in that time). If .5% of those that see it actually

heed

it, that's ~300 fewer freakouts a month. I could deal with getting ~10 less "!?" letters a day, especially if all it takes is the addition of one Story code to the database.

That said, "CONTRO:explanation within" seems like an intelligent way to do what i maintain is not necessary to do. Minimal change to the programming, one additional step for the author, burden of conscience upon the reader.

That's where the burden already lies, in theory. The front door says it -- "Enter at your own risk." But many use a window, so (quite apparently) the Authors of CONTRO fic could do with an extra layer of protection. Whether or not it is

necessary

is left to the Author, on a case-by-case basis, as with any Story code. I feel it is a hospitable gesture to offer a partial solution to people who are abused within our walls, as well as a peace-keeping device.

The definition of the "CONTRO:See Chap1" code will need to address the level of controversy intended. Not just, as you say, because it's in the headlines or the Supreme Court at the time of writing, but because it stretches an already elastic envelope to the brink with content, mood or participants that offer the extremeness of squicking. Bestiality would be on that list, pedophilia.

Yes -- some subjects, like bestiality and pedophilia, are obvious; others might be applicable due to context and/or individual Author intuition. All code usage depends on the level of an Author's proactivity.

I'd need to add a Xenophilia discussion to my Lamia, to be certain. The vore. Maybe the MadScientist porn...

You won't

need

to; Story codes aren't something we will be enforcing. But it is a fine idea, if you feel it is potentially deeply disturbing.

And all Bible fanfic, just because the Faithful do not understand the point of fanfic. (

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/sig...i?as7gp9&1)

I nearly shit my shorts at that petition. Someone needs a

life!

(And yes -- Jesus!fic srsly needs some CONTRO...)

Thanx. And while i'm willing to argue about nearly anything, i usually don't truly take offense until blood floes. Just exchanging opinions and gently exploring the fact that everyone but me is wrong.

In that way, I am well probed. Not so much in others. (Egad! Was that controversial?? Tsk!)

[Ezriee]

I think its one thing to request a story be removed because of the content, but the letter on page one is a bit over the top.

I also think that the fact that the stories in question are original fiction, it makes it a lot easier to imagine an innocent child and place that story in the real world, where as if you have pedo in one of the other fandoms since there are a lot of the that are animated.While I did look at the stories in question and decided immediately that they were not my cup of tea, I admit that I do read stories like young naruto/kakashi etc, etc and I think that because of the fact that its so obviously fiction, it makes it easier not to see those stories as crossing the line...

Does that make sense to anyone, or is it just me?

[Keith Inc.]

Does that make sense to anyone, or is it just me?

I think you're saying that the threshold of disbelief is higher in one than the other, by virtue of the setting/character/source material?

That makes sense.

If i say that Bugs Bunny does something, you have an image of a cartoon in your head, not a man in a felt costume.

If i say that Aver Rage does something, you have an image of a real person in your head and respond differently. It's either more real, or more easy to imagine as being real. Yeah.

Also, in fanfic, there's an uphill battle against perceived characters. If i write that Gandalf's preoccupation with hobbits stems from a fetish for sex with tiny, tiny children, most fans would dismiss it. I'd get hate male for what i did to the character.

If Aver Rage sexes a child, there's no preconception to fight. People accept it as real more readily because they have no expectations of what Aver would or would not do. The hate mail would center on what the character did.

good point.

[Ezriee]

Thats exactly what I mean. When you're in a fandom based off a movie, anime manga, ect, you know that the characters are just that, characters and you've had a glimpse of their personalities.

(I guess thats the reason that I don't read celebrity fics...though you get a pretty good glimpse of what they can be like from interviews and stuff, it just doesn't sit well with me that you're writing about a real person.)

[Keith Inc.]

(I guess thats the reason that I don't read celebrity fics...though you get a pretty good glimpse of what they can be like from interviews and stuff, it just doesn't sit well with me that you're writing about a real person.)

Huh. I generally don't write celeb fics because i don't feel confident that i can get 'into character' enough to anticipate what they'd do or say.

Morally, my writing process for an original or a fanfic is largely me pretending to be one or two characters and writing it down. I don't have that much of an issue pretending to be a real person.

[shinigamiinochi]

To me, fiction is fiction. Whether the character came from the mind of someone else or your own, it still isn't a real person. Sure, it might be easier for someone to swallow, but the concept is the same. I think that it is a tad bit insane when someone writes a fanfic about child rape and people accept it, but when that person decides to make it an original work by simply changing names, but none of the content, suddenly it's offensive. Those characters came from someone's imagination, unlike the entire celebrity fiction genre, but even then you are discussing (hopefully) fictional events. If someone is reading those fictional events and while it is easier to imagine that original character as a real person, in the end, that person isn't real. That theory only works for anime and cartoon, anyway, what about fanfictions like Buffy where there is a real actor? Couldn't you also argue that people would be offended because it would be like it was happening to the actor? Also, people actually find fanfiction about cartoons and anime more offensive because they think that, because the characters are animated, children would be more likely to read it than the stuff based on liveaction media.

[Guest Jaxxy]

To me, fiction is fiction. [...]

I never tire of visiting this thread -- you people are just brimming with thoughts that really help to fill in and round out my philosophies, with something my mind prefers to reject, but absolutely needs -- lovely, lovely details. (ADHD's a cruel mistress!) I see a shiny new thing, and now I can better empathize with the current confusion.

When, in fiction, we aren't

told

to envision Naruto et al., we end up picturing the neighbor's kid, a student we teach, or our own children. For those of us who, for whatever reason, don't automatically separate fictional situations from things that upset -- or have traumatized -- us in the "real world", this is incredibly disturbing. Probably, it's not so much a matter of

who

can't separate these thoughts, but which thoughts any given individual can't easily separate; I think there must be a lot of people who've got

something

they just can't spin (or read) a yarn about.

You guys's ideas really make my life easier, especially if (when) I get letters like the one that began this thread. I guess, because it's so upsetting to me that someone would guiltlessly -- worse, righteously, and with a lot of public applause -- call a writer a pedophile (?!), I sometimes get too emotional, and maybe a little autistically stuck for words (yes, it is

too

possible!).

Thank you,

Eziree

, for bringing that perspective to me -- and thanks to everyone else for holding these gems out and under the light, and turning them over and over for me -- and each other. I aim to truly understand this, and understand

us

.

Deeply

appreciated.