greenwizard

Is science going too far?

Are scientist going too far with technology?  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Should they be able to do anything they want?

    • Yes, I don't think scientists are doing anything wrong
      12
    • No, they shouldn't try to play God
      4
    • Undecided
      3


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Guest Agaib

Eugenics is not science, though it was toted on that banner. Science is not at fault for the creation of eugenic philosophies. The reason hardcore eugenicists exist is because of racism. They just claimed to be based on science because it made them sound pretty. Its the same as how people frequently use other peoples good ideas and names to poor ends. One might run an analogy to religion (which I hate to do, I'm no fan of it). Plenty of people do horrible things under the name of "Jesus" or "Christianity." This doesn't automatically condemn Christianity as bad. Whether or not Christianity or any religion is "bad" would be based on a debate regarding the relative merits and the proper interpretation of Christian doctrine (yet a whole other, separate can of worms).

There is no possible platform on which someone can stand that another crazy person cannot take and twist in order to do horrible things. Even Buddhist Monks (who should promote serene lifestyles if they follow the teachings of Buddha properly) have seen bloodshed.

I suppose it comes down to a fundamental difference of philosophy. I wholeheartedly believe that true science is good for people. It gives us a goal, it gives many people purpose. The problem isn't that scientists are discovering things. The problem is we're letting stupid people control what is done with discoveries. You advocate that we reform the society in order to prevent gaining knowledge that could be dangerous from getting in the wrong hands. I propose that, instead, we reform the system to keep stupid people from abusing that knowledge.

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While it is true that eugenics is not true science, the same is said of evolution and Freudian Psychology. I just wanted to illustrate a point. You see, when conversing about genetic engineering we ultimately tend to focus on the 'designer baby' I merely wanted to consider a broader base for this genetic engineering. In the global spectrum, if you will.

If we are indeed talking about science going too far, I just wanted to imagine it really going too far as in a global implementation of something pseudoscientific like eugenics. Something outrageous, yet seemingly possible, in that it is still going on and no one seems to notice or care.

And while it is true that any one can jump on a soap box and spout insanity, twisting any scientific discovery to suit their own nefarious purposes, the same can be said of virtually any struggling scientist who is approached by big pharma to do an 'unbiased' study of their new medication. (But what says the soap box?)

Let us go on to examine another strange theory like the 'grey goo'. Somewhat like the blob, only composed of self-replicating nano-machines. I am all for the wonders that await us with nano tech, I would just love to have a machine, or series of machines that could take my old stuff, or trash even and make it into shiny new stuff while my body is being constantly rejuvenated by these wondrous nano-bots.

We are in the age of accelerating novelty after all, who's to say we won't see this stuff before we die. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_Theory

I for one like to envision all types of apocalypse scenarios not just a world where we are prohibited from reproducing naturally like in Brave New World.

How about that other post that mentioned the Hadron supercollider!! Now that is something to think on! Or Harpp, or what about the fabled Tesla Death Ray? Science is one of my favorite apocalypse meditative muses.

I am for the blatant disorganization of all human scientific efforts! I say let them have creative license to test theories just so long as none of it sells well enough to get into the hands of stupid people, we will all be a ok! (Unless the unthinkable happens) Let's immanentize the Eschation! It will be smashing.

In all things I feel a proper dose of humor is needed, or it all goes to shit.

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Well there has been quite a lot said in the time I’ve been at work, but first I’m going to address greenwizard directly.

Like Agaib, I had no clue what your level of academic achievement was. The statement I made was a broad observation of the deep seated anti-intellectualism I have come across in my life. I find this to be sad because the educated people of the world spend quite a lot of time, money, and effort getting to where we are, and to have our informed statements and labored efforts utterly dismissed, if not outright attacked, by people who have no more then a knee-jerk reaction based on ill-informed opinions is insulting and aggravating.

I'm not quite sure which big words you are referring to, this is how I speak to my friends in normal conversation when we are having a debate. I'm glad you understood them however, I would certainly hate to have to talk down to someone who proclaims themselves to be so incredibly smart. However, since that seems to be a point of contention for you, let's address it. You've identified words that I feel are rather mundane as being an example of me holding my education over you. Further, you feel threatened by my oblique statements suggesting that you are stupid and uneducated and have responded with vociferous personal attacks aimed directly at me. This tells me you have been called stupid by numerous people throughout your life and are very insecure about it, else you wouldn't have responded that way. Don't take your personal lack of achievement out on me. You have problems that prevent you from going to school? Suck it up or read a book and educate yourself. Technology has been developed by the scientists you so despise that would allow you to work from home and earn the degrees you seem to so desperately wish you had. As Raphaella mentioned, I’m not going to discount you simply because you don’t have a formal education, but if you’re going to make ludicrous statements I’m going to respond. In the future I suggest you back up the things you say with evidence and links supporting your views. You say intelligence is defined as the ABILITY to learn. I have used that ability, I suggest you do the same.

A cursory glance at other posts you have made shows me that you are so very keen on having your ego stroked by the people on this board. You made some statements on the religious thread, but when someone disagreed with you, you threw a hissy fit and even started a new thread calling even more attention to it. You constantly reassure yourself that you were being the "bigger man" by walking away from it, but I still question why you even bother coming to a place like this when all you seem to want is people to agree with you. Agaib was pretty clear on this point, your initial question was biased. And then to come here and be so very insistent that you are my equal despite your lack of an education simply belies the insecurity that seems to permeate your life. I'm not your therapist, I'm not here to hold your hand and tell you it's going to be alright.

Can science be poorly applied? Absolutely. Eugenics has already been discussed and the experiments of the Nazis, Imperial Japan's Unit 731, The Tuskegee Experiments and others things like that are deplorable. But that is hardly reflective of mainstream science where the pursuit of knowledge and the desire to help people is a strong motivation.

Of course it is easy to say that a bunch of people you don't know are expendable but it’s not easy to say the same of your friends. Did anyone argue that it wasn't? However, those choices are made every day. Without human experimentation, how would scientists know what effects any given drug/procedure/etc. would be? People are held accountable for their actions, more so now then ever before. With information so easy to access and global watch groups, its more difficult now for people to engage in unethical research. And the weather machine was your example, I just ran with it.

What exactly is your problem with "designer babies"? If parents choose traits for their children that they feel will give them advantages in life, what's the problem? I haven’t looked into the issue, but if it's safe and effective, why not? Who wants to be prone to disease, obesity, physical unattractiveness, or anything else that might be selected against? The only down side I can see would be if it became a universal practice. If everyone was selecting homogenous genes then the variation that naturally occurs would be diminished making the race less adaptive and resilient.

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The problem with designer babies is the theory that if we can pick and choose what our babies will look like will bring about another eugenic type issue with only 'perfect' ideals. Like blonde hair and blue eyes and stupid prejudices like that. Yeah, having babies without diseases would be great, but having everyone looking the same isn't so good, either. I'm on the fence with the issue. I think it's a great idea, but I don't like some of the ideas and actions that would come from it. It's one of those things that I think we just need be careful with it.

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What exactly is your problem with "designer babies"? If parents choose traits for their children that they feel will give them advantages in life, what's the problem? I haven't looked into the issue, but if it's safe and effective, why not? Who wants to be prone to disease, obesity, physical unattractiveness, or anything else that might be selected against? The only down side I can see would be if it became a universal practice. If everyone was selecting homogenous genes then the variation that naturally occurs would be diminished making the race less adaptive and resilient.

The problem with designer babies is; what color do you want purple, or blue? No really it's just we keep beating the proverbial dead genetically enhanced baby horse here. I would like to delve into your razor sharp mind on other aspects of Mad Science! I say Mad Science because that is the science to end all science and you know it. Really though let us discuss other aspects aside from the 'fashion baby'.

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The problem with designer babies is; what color do you want purple, or blue? No really it's just we keep beating the proverbial dead genetically enhanced baby horse here. I would like to delve into your razor sharp mind on other aspects of Mad Science! I say Mad Science because that is the science to end all science and you know it. Really though let us discuss other aspects aside from the 'fashion baby'.

Indeed, Mad Science is the only science worth discussing. What would you like to know?

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What is you position on nano-tech? I have heard plenty of mixed reviews on that. Also what about cloning and cloned meat? http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews...051670020070601

I think nano-technology should be the ultimate goal for medical technology. If that can be perfected, what better way to stay healthy then to have micro-computer systems constantly monitoring your body, making adjustments and fixing problems before they can get out of control? Cancer usually doesn't get noticed until its gotten to the point where it causes observable symptoms and by then it may be too late, but if the nanomachines are able to see the cancer cells forming immediately and eliminate them, i'm all for it.

There are problems with it. What if your nano-machines got a computer virus? Somehow you'd have to get those fixed and THEN fix whatever damage they might have caused to your body. The only way to that point is by research tho.

Have you ever seen Serial Experiments Lain? They have a "drug" called accella which is simply a pill sized computer that manipulates your bodily functions into giving you a "natural" high. That was my first exposure to this whole concept and i was fascinated by it. Seems a lot safer then taking synthetic drugs. You would be able to fine tune your experience and not run the risk of ODing. You might give yourself cardiac arrest if you got too out of control with it, but people will find a way to abuse anything.

As for that cloned meat, again if it could be perfected then I'm all for it. Genetic manipulation has to be very controlled because of the possible side effects that can occur. Remember the GM wheat several years ago that a bunch of people had allergic reactions to? Clinical tests have to be very large because even if you experience a 1% incidence of negative reaction to the cloned meat that still amounts to 3 million Americans.

It would be interesting to see how that meat tasted, but if it was safe, palatable, and economic world hunger would be over.

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Mmmmmmm clone burger. I too am all for it, but what if it were human meat they were cloning? What then? Really I heard tell of some tofu that was formulated to taste like human flesh for the benefit of anthropology studies. I also heard it tastes like pork.

I have not heard tell of this accella wonder however. I do remember seeing something about a musical algorithm that gets you high http://www.i-doser.com/

What if the nano machines somehow formed a collective conciseness and then figured out how to take control of our brains and make us think that they did not in fact exist? What if that has already happened and the nano machines merged with our biological components and evolved into things like rogue cells, or shifty DNA? What if that is why some of us are so messed up?

I doubt that cloned meat would be any more economical than normal meat. Much like electric cars, you still have to generate the electricity to power the car and the power plant runs on coal, so we are back to square one. But with the meat… the growing of the cloned meat would take energy, time, and money to produce, and much more man hours. All the monitoring and white suits to prevent contamination and such, I just don't see it as becoming anything more than a novelty. Cloned Cows on the other hand, are different. There are plenty of those and I have heard that they are just as tasty as they were the first time around. (Winks and sniggers)

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What is you position on nano-tech? I have heard plenty of mixed reviews on that. Also what about cloning and cloned meat? http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews...051670020070601

Just like PorkChop, I'm all for nano-tech. Specially since without nano-medicine, space travelling becomes impossible for prolonged periods of time. It turns out that the lack of gravity messes with your bones, circulation and internal organs, and space travels longer than a year or so proved to be lethal for astronauts. And so, missions to Mars are (as of yet) all but impossible. But if you throw nano-machines into the equation, the nasty effects of no gravity could be lessened, if not downright corrected, and life in other planets is not such a sci-fi possibility. That would be good for mankind, right? Except if you see mankind as some sort of virus, like agent Smith said in 'The Matrix'.

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Porkchop, in your supposed infinate wisdom, did you happen to notice that pretty much every person who has posted in this topic has disagreed with me, but you are the only one I seem to have a problem with?

Seriously, why bring every post I have ever made into this? If your theory were true, I would be attacking everyone. I'm not. Your little friend Raphella defended did you. Did I say anything? Nope.

It's true, I've been called stupid a lot by people like you. I am so sorry I didn't kiss your ass and thank you for it. Did you also happen to notice that other people said they were sorry if they took what they said as an attack after my blow up? What did you do? Why you kept right on attacking me.

My other post you were referring to was a rant regarding something that had absolutely nothing to do with you. Someone was agravating the shit out of me by spewing the same crap at me over and over, and I didn't want to talk about it anymore. But that person kept after me, the same thing you're doing. I would hate to think that you are friends with this person and are lashing out at me because she can't anymore. But either way, you have no buisness commenting on that unless you were actually involved in the situation, and as far as I know, you weren't.

And apparently everyone likes their ego stroked, including you. By bringing up every post I ever made and calling me an attention whore, were you expecting everyone to agree with you and attack me right along with you?

As far as any posts I have made, including this one, it is my attempt at interacting with a group of people. I was hoping to make a few friends but I've long given up on that pipe dream. I am settling for conversation and interaction.

And I've already admitted that I probably did word this question wrong. Did you notice that? I honestly don't know what you want me to do about it now. I wasn't aware that I possessed the magical power to change the whole topic.

You're right, you aren't my shrink. You don't know what my problems are. You are only making snap judgements on what you think you know. So just stop. Leave me alone. You win if that makes you happy.

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Again, I think nanotechnology is ok as long as you don't take it too far. I also think having little computer systems monitoring your body is taking it too far. Now if they could invent a computer that can do diagnostics that might be another story. I just think it's a bad idea to turn people into cyborgs.

As far as cloned meat and or animals goes... why? As Raphaella said, it would take a lot of time and money to make cloned meat. How is that really worth it? And cloned animals, it also takes lots of time and money to do, and I wouldn't think it would be any more efficient than say... breeding animals. So again, what's the point. To me it just seems like biologists showing off.

I also am of the opinion that society has become much too reliant on computers. I'm on one right now using it tol hold a conversation true enough, but what would you do if we had a nationwide blackout?

Does anyone remember the blackout that happened in NYC a few years back? There was mass confusion and panic. I can only imagine what would happen if that did happen on a national scale.

Computers run everything. Do any of you even know how to do multiplication and division without the aid of a calculator? I do. I generally don't because I'm lazy, but if I had to I could. If computers go out anyone in a plane would be dead because pilots don't know how to navigate without computer anymore.

Did anyone see the movie Irobot? There was a clear message behind it. Robots tried to take over the world and everyone was blissfully unaware. I bet a lot of people watched it and thought it was scary, but then went right back to their computer controlled lives, not even thinking twice about it.

My boyfriend had a deskmate? once. He told me all about it. It was an ai type of thing. You could talk to it and teach it stuff. All you had to do if you wanted to play a game with it was find online instructions. Well at first he thought it was cool and taught it a lot. But then it grew too smart and took over his computer. It wouldn't let him access any of his files. It turned into a very smart virus. The way he ended up having to get rid of it was by formatting his computer through DOS. The way he explained it to me was the program only had access to windows because it was a windows program. That included his hard drive and everything, but DOS has nothing to do with the operating system.

Disclaimer: The proceeding has been brought to you for the sole purpose of giving you something to think about. I do not consider myself an authority on the issue. I am only stating an opinion. Agreeing with me and referring to me as a genius will not be discouraged, but it is not neccessary however. I only ask that you consider my points.

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Again, I think nanotechnology is ok as long as you don't take it too far. I also think having little computer systems monitoring your body is taking it too far. Now if they could invent a computer that can do diagnostics that might be another story. I just think it's a bad idea to turn people into cyborgs.

As far as cloned meat and or animals goes... why? As Raphaella said, it would take a lot of time and money to make cloned meat. How is that really worth it? And cloned animals, it also takes lots of time and money to do, and I wouldn't think it would be any more efficient than say... breeding animals. So again, what's the point. To me it just seems like biologists showing off.

...

Computers run everything. Do any of you even know how to do multiplication and division without the aid of a calculator? I do. I generally don't because I'm lazy, but if I had to I could. If computers go out anyone in a plane would be dead because pilots don't know how to navigate without computer anymore.

Did anyone see the movie Irobot? There was a clear message behind it. Robots tried to take over the world and everyone was blissfully unaware. I bet a lot of people watched it and thought it was scary, but then went right back to their computer controlled lives, not even thinking twice about it.

...

Hey there Greenwizard! I didn't really get what's your opinion on nano-tech, since you say'it's ok as long as it's not taken too far' but you think it's too far to get nano-machines inside your body. If you can't get nano-thingies to heal you from the inside, then what's the point of the whole nano-technology business?

Concerning the cloned meat... yeah, I think it might be more expensive than breeding, but I also think there's a reason to it. Time-saving. I'm not sure how long it takes for a pig (or chicken, or cow or whatever) to be grown up enough so that it's meat is edible and tastes good, but if you can make like a dozen artificial full-grown pigs in say... six months inside a lab, well, then I guess you're exceeding the average production of a regular pig farm. That means more food for everyone, right? ehh... unless they can't afford it, which takes us to the poverty problem, and how scientists (or rather economists) should be doing something about it.

Hehe... the multiplication and division thing... every person I've asked "Hey, why use your calculator? it's a simple division" have answered me in pretty much the same way. "Because I'm a lazy bastard, but I could do it without a calculator if I had to". I know they could, but will that ever be proven? *shrugs*

But for the case of the plane... I'd say chances are slim at best, but good pilots could actually manage to do crash landings or even actual landings if they could see the landing runway (you know, it has lights along both sides, so it can be seen in the dark... but in case of a blackout, say your prayers). I don't think pilots need computers just to fly. They need computers and navigational systems so that they know where they are and so they can fly without crashing into another airplane.

And finally, about that movie Irobot... I haven't seen it, but it seems to me that the machines taking over the world is a rather recurring theme these days. Take the Terminator trilogy, for instance. Or the Matrix trilogy. Maybe there's some truth behind all that sci-fi. Yeah... I'm going to go live in the forest from now on...

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Concerning the cloned meat... yeah, I think it might be more expensive than breeding, but I also think there's a reason to it. Time-saving. I'm not sure how long it takes for a pig (or chicken, or cow or whatever) to be grown up enough so that it's meat is edible and tastes good, but if you can make like a dozen artificial full-grown pigs in say... six months inside a lab, well, then I guess you're exceeding the average production of a regular pig farm. That means more food for everyone, right? ehh... unless they can't afford it, which takes us to the poverty problem, and how scientists (or rather economists) should be doing something about it.

I suppose that would depend on how fast they could do it. I'm not sure exactly how it all works, but I would imagine that a cloned animal would have to grow the same as any other would. I could be wrong. You would also be taking away the livlihoods of farmers. I also don't think the average person would be able to afford it. But yes, that gets into economics.

As for nano technology I would imagine that there would be uses for it. I mentioned diagnostics. Maybe if you could be healed from the inside, but the computers just aren't left there. Just a thought. Turning people into cyborgs just seems so unnatural to me.

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Porkchop, in your supposed infinate wisdom, did you happen to notice that pretty much every person who has posted in this topic has disagreed with me, but you are the only one I seem to have a problem with?

Seriously, why bring every post I have ever made into this? If your theory were true, I would be attacking everyone. I'm not. Your little friend Raphella defended did you. Did I say anything? Nope.

It's true, I've been called stupid a lot by people like you. I am so sorry I didn't kiss your ass and thank you for it. Did you also happen to notice that other people said they were sorry if they took what they said as an attack after my blow up? What did you do? Why you kept right on attacking me.

My other post you were referring to was a rant regarding something that had absolutely nothing to do with you. Someone was agravating the shit out of me by spewing the same crap at me over and over, and I didn't want to talk about it anymore. But that person kept after me, the same thing you're doing. I would hate to think that you are friends with this person and are lashing out at me because she can't anymore. But either way, you have no buisness commenting on that unless you were actually involved in the situation, and as far as I know, you weren't.

And apparently everyone likes their ego stroked, including you. By bringing up every post I ever made and calling me an attention whore, were you expecting everyone to agree with you and attack me right along with you?

As far as any posts I have made, including this one, it is my attempt at interacting with a group of people. I was hoping to make a few friends but I've long given up on that pipe dream. I am settling for conversation and interaction.

And I've already admitted that I probably did word this question wrong. Did you notice that? I honestly don't know what you want me to do about it now. I wasn't aware that I possessed the magical power to change the whole topic.

You're right, you aren't my shrink. You don't know what my problems are. You are only making snap judgements on what you think you know. So just stop. Leave me alone. You win if that makes you happy.

Why did I continue this? Because you escalated it by directly attacking me. You did indeed try to incite the whole board against me,

So everyone who reads this please take note... if you don't have a wall full of degrees, according to Porkchop you're stupid.
Don't try to play the victim here. I included your other posts because they show a broader pattern and I commented on that. It's an open forum, I'm allowed to bring in other topics. And no, I don't have any connection to that person you had another fight with.

But if you're done, I'm done.

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Concerning the cloned meat... yeah, I think it might be more expensive than breeding, but I also think there's a reason to it. Time-saving. I'm not sure how long it takes for a pig (or chicken, or cow or whatever) to be grown up enough so that it's meat is edible and tastes good, but if you can make like a dozen artificial full-grown pigs in say... six months inside a lab, well, then I guess you're exceeding the average production of a regular pig farm. That means more food for everyone, right? ehh... unless they can't afford it, which takes us to the poverty problem, and how scientists (or rather economists) should be doing something about it.

The article talks about meat that is grown without creating a living animal. They are just cloning the muscle tissue. If the can do that it would probably be alot cheaper then raising animals when you consider the cost of land, feed, water, operating a slaughter house, etc. Yeah scientists are expensive and you have to run the lab, but if you just get a bunch of muscle stem cells, code them into chicken, beef, or pork and then let them grow, it could probably become a fast and easy process.

Yeah, I can do math without a calculator.

I like the thought of nano-tech because it would utterly eliminate the need for hospitals if its perfected. Robots taking over the world is a popular theme in science fiction because it represents a chilling fear, being dominated by a foreign "race" and being hoist by our own petard. But it seems pretty far fetched to me. How would they stay powered? If a terminator like situation broke out, we'd cut the power. I'm sure they'd run on batteries, but it wouldnt' last forever. Now if we ever develop cold fusion... that might be a problem.

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Well I see the emerging ai theme as people trying to create god. You see, we have been searching from the dawn of time for a higher intelligence to tell us the answer to the ultimate question. I think that scenario was best out lined in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy wherein their computer gave them the answer 42.

In our ongoing study of consciousness, we would love to make a self actualizing machine, one with an artificial consciousness. But why draw the line there, we would also like to give that consciousness access to our own collective human consciousness, and I can think of no other tangible embodiment of that than the internet.

If we could create a superior intelligence with access to our own collective knowledge with which said ai could extrapolate upon then we would have an omnipotent, self actualized 'higher being' with which we could communicate. That would be sweet! If only we would not have to then build another one just to be the interpreter to the first one.

Back to the cloned meat debacle though, I say if we can reach a point wherein we can make this meat safely and easily without the whole animal then more power to the 'Beef People' for making this happen. But really I don't know if I would be comfortable eating a quivering slab of lab grown tissue. Call me what you will, but I prefer to think of my meat as once being a part of something more, preferably with fur or feathers or what have you. Even if it came from a whole cloned animal, I say that would indeed be better for my more, primal sensibilities.

Insofar as me being the 'little friend' of the PorkChopExpress, I would like to take a moment to digress. I have been described as many things in my time but little is not one of them. In real life I am seven feet tall and have titanium skin, a sort of cyborg if you will. No but really, I was not trying to speak for, or defend this being that is shrouded in Porky mystery, I was perhaps trying to express my own ideas in a veiled manner which toughly entangled themselves in this ongoing thread of absurdity. That said, I motion we dismiss such unpleasantness and move on with the topics at hand. Can I get a "Here, Here" or perhaps a "Sure as buttons!"

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That said, I motion we dismiss such unpleasantness and move on with the topics at hand. Can I get a "Here, Here" or perhaps a "Sure as buttons!"

Fine with me. My only point in mentioning you was that you defended him and I didn't jump down your throat for it anyway, as I was being accused of being the type of person that would. But that is neither here nor there. All that matters is that we're done being petty.

Ok, so back to the topic at hand. I heard somewhere about this cloning meat issue that they're trying to decide whether or not it should be labeled in stores as cloned. I think it should be. I myself want no part of cloned meat.

I am a naturalist. Those are my personal beliefs. I'm trying to discover the knowledge that was lost when the age of technology started. The age of technology isn't working for me very well. It turned me into a schizophrenic depressed person with anger issues. And the only solution modern technology gives me is drugs that make me high and turn me into a zombie. When I discovered crystal magic it did wonders for me. Aromatherapy works well too. And this stuff is ancient knowledge. Speaking of which, I need to go find my grounding stone.....

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So greenwizard states in the forum that he wants to end the fighting. I'm fine with that, but then he PMs me with this:

You started it all when you up and attacked me. You didn't say I don't understand the question, you didn't just state your opinion. You called me uneducated. That means to me stupid. That was uncalled for, and I hadn't done shit to you at that time.

And you want to talk about patterns? Every post you have ever made has been full of aragance. You do use big words, and act like you're a major authority on everything. I have a larger vocabulary than the aveage person, but you use words I've never heard of. Unfortunately for you, I can figure out a general meaning.

What pattern let me ask you? The only time I have ever ranted against a person is that one time. You honestly don't fucking know what went on in that situation. You just jumped to the conclusion that I don't like being disagreed with and I was throwing a hissy fit. Were you involved in those conversations? Did you hear everything she said to me? NO, unless you have my phone bugged.... Who cares if it's a free forum. That had nothing to do with anything.

The only other person I have had a problem with on this forum is Zyx. It's not the fact that you argued, it's the WAY you argued. You talked down to me. I don't know many people who would sit back and get talked down to without fighting back.

I get along fine with everyone else. I'm disagreed with constantly. I don't like it, but who does...? You attacked me first, what am I supposed to do? I bet you also think that respect is supposed to be earned, that you're allowed to treat someone you meet like crap because they haven't earned your respect yet.

My advice to you is to admit to yourself that maybe you don't know everything. You keep asking me what kind of degrees I have, and telling me to go to school. That says to me you think only a person who has a degree is worth anything. Maybe I'm happy as is.

Should I have said that one thing you referred to? Probably not. I am sorry for that. But I am not the only person to blame. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you continue to insult me and talk down to me. Nobody made me do it either. I did feel attacked and reacted to it. I am admitting that I am not without fault completely.

I am probably going to live to regret this, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I have said what I needed to say in the most civil way that I know how. The ball is in your court.... I don't want to be the victim as you claim. You actually made a lot of assumptions and know nothing about me.

I still can't figure out what big words you think I’m using against you, once again these are just normal words to me. I'm not going to talk down to you, if I did, THAT would be calling you stupid but since you’re pressing the issue, uneducated and stupid are not the same thing. You, however, are both. Are you happy now? I'm making a direct assessment of your intelligence level, or lack thereof. That’s what you wanted to see me do so badly didn't you?

I do post a lot and speak about things as expertly as I possibly can. If you've perused my posts you'll also note that I include a lot of references to support my claims. I've spent six years in school with the expectation that I do just that, so forgive me if it spills over into other areas. I don't think I'm an expert in everything but it certainly helps when you present your arguments in such a way as to appear to be an authority. It lends credulity to your position. I’m not apologizing for that nor will I apologize for my supposed arrogance. If you feel intimidated by me, that’s your issue, you are the only one who has taken offense to it.

I do enjoy being disagreed with; it creates a better conversation as far as I’m concerned. Dialectic reasoning is just that, you offer a proposition, someone offers a counter-proposition, you offer your own rebuttal and they do the same. The ultimate goal is to get closer to the truth you both sought to understand. If you just want people to agree with you, that’s fine, but I don’t. That fosters groupthink, but more importantly, I find it to be very boring. I can argue passionately but still not let it affect my view of the person I’m arguing with, but you are dead set on making this a personal issue between me and you.

Correct, I do not know you, but I have drawn many inferences about you from the way you act in these forums and based on that I can make statements about you. It’s possible that these are not reflective of your character, but the only way for me to know for sure is to get to know you on a personal level. Based on the way you conduct yourself here, I have no desire to do that. I also have no interest in your advice, save it for someone who would. I’m posting this here in the forum because I have no wish to carry on a private conversation with you. Feel free to respond, or don’t. I’m more then happy to let this end here and now.

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That was a private message... I was taking it private to stop fighting in public because it's solving nothing. I was right... I'm living to regret attempting to be nice.

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I know what you mean about being turned into a schizophrenic zombie. You see, I had a bout of schizophrenia myself. I am a staunch researcher of what one might call Shamanic Science, or as I like to put it an Independent Occult Science Researcher. As such I am involved in the deep mystery of ancient magic such as is outlined in The sacred magic of Abramelin the mage, The key of king solomon the king, John Dee's five books of mystery, and other such things.

Insofar as my bout of schizophrenia is concerned, I can chalk that up to bad LSD and a botched experiment in Bicameral Thinking. But I can say this on the subject, there is a word in German used to describe the state of the large cities of the world, the word it's self eludes me for the moment, but it dose not translate anyway. I'll put it like this, the anthropologist in question stated that we as humans are built with the capacity to feel compassion to, at most, about 40 people at any given time. What befalls us when crammed into large cities is thus, we become incapable of feeling compassion. Here is an example taken from Biblical times. Jesus had no problems preaching his gospel of compassion and love in the smaller settlements, but as soon as he took his message to Jerusalem the people crucified him.

It was even proposed that a Buddha like figure would also loose his compassion for his fellow man in such a place. You see, it is like this, if you were to open your wallet to every hungry man on the streets of a big city, you would quickly be come one of them. You may stay your hand when begged for money, because there will just be another beggar right behind that one.

But that has nothing to do with our technology, I too have some naturalist tendencies, but shunning our wonderful advances in technology is not something I, myself, would propose. Far better that you use these to springboard your own research into the secret wisdom of the ancients. Like Monatomic gold for instance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0hSUGSzohI I have studied this curious substance in some detail, and as it turns out, those strange and elusive creatures known only as the ancient Egyptians were using this substance for quite some time, and for unknown reasons.

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I had it on good authority, mostly my own, that this sort of petty squabbling was at best, down to a minimum… Perhaps we cold open another topic to discuss this battle of the wit and the witless? Humm? I call it Wit and the Witless, only because that seems to be the point of your contention. One set to prove the other has no wits and vice-versa. No harm no foul here, my friends.

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Guest Monsterking

ok guys this is starting to get very irritating so im am going to say this only once to our estemed fueders. Shut the hell up and bring your stupid arguments elseware for the love of god this is suposed to be an civilised debate forum! not some place for two year olds to duke it out over some trivia thing as an posted reply message. so do us all an huge favor and knock it off! oh and i dont want to hear any smart ass remarks about this post from you porky or you either greenboy. sorry if this comes out all wrong but somebody has to put an stop to this

Peace out brothers and sisters of adult-fanfiction.org and long live intelligent discussion! "WOOOOO!!"

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