Is science going too far?

[greenwizard]

I was watching a rerun of Law and Order last night. It was about a bomb that went off in some clinic that did genetic research. They were doing tests on unborn fetuses to see of they had any diseases or anything so the parents could decide if they want to abort the baby. Now I know that part wasn't made up. They actually do that. Their first suspect was a couple that was told their baby had cerebral pulsy, and when they decided to abort it found out the baby was perfectly healthy. I'm sure that really happens, which is fucking sad.

It ended up being the brother in law of the pregnant security guard that was hurt. There was some scientist that found a gay gene, and wanted to screen unborn babies for that as well. Well the grandfather of the baby wanted the father to have it aborted because the baby had the 'gay gene'.

Thankfully, I don't think science has ever really found a 'gay gene'. My problem is they're trying to. And I know damn well last night's episode will turn from fiction into reality. Parents who are against homosexuality will start aborting babies with the gene because they don't want a gay child. It will never occur to them that for their baby to have it, one of them has to have it. And if they aren't gay, well, that blows the whole theory to bits doesn't it? Of course they'd probably argue over which one had it and get a divorce.

Honestly, I think scientist are trying to play God, and that's dangerous. We as humans aren't meant to have that kind of knowledge. Didn't anybody learn from the movie Jurrasic Park? Yes, I know it was a book first, but the movie was more popular as always. I completely agree with what that Ian character said. They were so focused on thinking about whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think about whether or not they should.

Killer bees are a good example of science out of control. Scientist were trying to make a more agressive honey bee so they would increase honey production. The bees got loose. Now people are coming across these things and getting killed. I really think that scientists just need to learn to leave things alone.

[Guest Monsterking]

monsterking here i have an example from the orignal godzilla when they kill him using an weapon that can strip oxegon from the air in an radius around it the sise of toko. of course this comes back to haunt them in the movie godzilla vs destroyer when it is discovered that an pre camberian life form was revived an mutated by the complete lack of oxegen in the air(in the pre camberian life exsisted without oxegon) so eventually when an literly melting down and super charged godzilla meets destroyah they fight and though godzilla(with the help of the military) kills the monster it is discovered that he is about an minute from having an melt down that would end life on earth. the military using something that i forgot what it was stops the radiation from spreading across the globe and the movie ends with godzilla's son whom was killed by destroyer being revived by all the radiation and becoming the next godzilla.

sorry if i got an little off track but i felt that i did have to give an synophsis of the story so that you can see what i ment

Peace out brothers and sisters of adult-fanfiction.org and may the furs be with you "WOOOOOO!!"

[PorkChopExpress86]

So were scientists not meant to map the human genome and offer the possibility of curing heretofore incurable genetic diseases? or how about when they discovered penicillin and stopped "god" from killing hundreds of thousands of people every year? Back in the day when someone died of disease it was believed that god was punishing them so curing them medicinally was pretty much playing god in their eyes. Science should go as far as possible, if it listened to this conservative paranoia we'd still be living in thatched roof huts fearful of the sound of thunder thinking it was god getting angry.

And as to the existence of science isolating a gay gene it’s extremely unlikely. If indeed people are born gay (which I do believe is the case) then their sexuality is undoubtedly coded for on multiple genes. Homosexuality is a genetic dead end because they, by nature, don't reproduce thus any inherited trait that made them gay in the first place would not be passed on to a future generation. Further, the studies that have been done on the subject suggest that the children of gay parents are no more likely to be gay then anyone else. So if homosexuality is inborn then it would have to come from a combination of factors that both parents contribute to which would make it very difficult for scientists to “stop.”

[foeofthelance]

Ah, I thought this was about the Hadron supercollider they were building near Hawaii, the one that was going to convert Earth to a black hole when they turned it on.

I don't know what the big worry is about science. If the biologists dont cook something up, the physicists will. And if neither of them succeeds, we'll be slammed by something else, and they'll get the blame for not stopping it in time.

[greenwizard]

I don't disagree with advances in medicine and such. But it's one thing to improve our lives, and quite another to kill us all.

So in saying that scientists aren't doing anything wrong, you agree with some lab technician telling a pregnant woman that her baby has like a 30% chance of developing some disease through testing, ultimately causing said woman to abort the baby who had a 70% chance of being perfectly fine.

And what about designer babies? Do you think it's right for a couple to be able to go to a doctor and pick out what genes they want their baby to get?

Or how about the fact that the over use of anti bacterial products are producing 'super bugs'. I don't think that scientific advancements are a bad thing completely. I just think that they need to use their heads more.

I actually have a bet going with someone that humans are going to destroy themselves with science. We live in a society where people who don't take responsibly with the knowledge they stumble across aren't held responsible when that knowledge gets out of control and destroys lives.

For whatever fucked up reason we are living under the false assumption that we control our enviorment, and have every right to do so. If say scientists thought they found a way to control weather and were testing this theory on some island or something, and something went terribly wrong, wiping out entire villlages of native people, most people would say; 'oh gee, that's awful, but oh well, it was in the name of science'. And the scientist involved would give some fake 'heartfelt' apology and say that they were working on figuring out what went wrong so it wouldn't happen again.

But it would happen again. Though maybe next time they might take out an entire country. What I'm saying might sound a little extreme, but honestly it isn't. And yes, if something happens that scientists don't stop, then people will bitch that should have been able to prevent it. That is human nature. The masses are never happy. But which would you rather... Mother nature wiping us all out, or people who claim to be smart doing something incredibly stupid?

[foeofthelance]

Hmmm, a couple nits to pick:

The first isn't really science doing anything wrong. The lab technician is just providing the facts to the mother, not ordering her to get an abortion. It is her choice to make, and if she chooses to make a stupid one, then it is her fault, not the technician's. If I tell you to be careful crossing the railroad tracks and you get hit, is it my fault for providing the warning? On the same note, if you're late instead, is it still my fault? Or did you choose to make a decision based on the information being provided to you?

Designer babies, I really don't see what's wrong with it. Ok, sure, I'd really hope we don't get to a point where we are putting Zebra stripes on our kids because its the fad for a few years. But if you had the ability to make sure your kid wasn't diabetic, or didn't have Down's Syndrome, or half a dozen different other genetic defects, wouldn't you take it? Sure, there will be people who want their kid to be a super athlete, or a musical prodigy, but so what? As long as the kid isn't harmed, there's nothing wrong with wanting your kids to succeed and providing them the means to do so.

Antibacterials aren't "creating" superbugs; they're simply leaving them a wider environment to breed in. This would be true of any use of medicine, as that's simply how life works. Sometimes we win, and manage to quash something like polio till it is almost unheard of in many countries, and sometime mother nature gives what ever we're fighting a little extra nudge to keep it ahead of us. It works the other way as well. As more and more 'superbugs' become apparent, the folks with stronger immune systems will be able to fight them off, making it more likely they'll breed.

[Guest Agaib]

This is a ridiculous question Greenwizard. I hope you'll excuse My bluntness but asking this question is like asking if "armies" are going too far. Which army? Who's controlling it? Not everyone agrees with every army. There are plenty of genetic scientists that aren't a fan of the designer babies idea. Your generalization of scientists in such a way really exposes a lot of ignorance you might have regarding what science is. The various sciences are only really linked by similarity of basic philosophies of methods, and the occasional data that is applicable to more than one field.

When asking if "scientists" are going too far, you need to be asking about a specific issue. I will never say that "scientists" are going too far. I might make a comment on whether or not certain types of research or experiments go too far. For example, the Milgram experiment is now generally accepted to put too much psychological stress on the participants to be considered ethical. Even then, it is rare that "scientists" are going to far. It is far more frequent that scientific discoveries are used improperly.

I hope you don't take this as an attack, but it bothers Me a lot when people forget that "scientists" are not one group of people with a powerful unified goal. The only goal that scientists share is the desire to expand the knowledge of mankind. How that knowledge should be used is a personal decision made by every individual person, scientist or not.

[PorkChopExpress86]

For whatever fucked up reason we are living under the false assumption that we control our enviorment, and have every right to do so. If say scientists thought they found a way to control weather and were testing this theory on some island or something, and something went terribly wrong, wiping out entire villlages of native people, most people would say; 'oh gee, that's awful, but oh well, it was in the name of science'. And the scientist involved would give some fake 'heartfelt' apology and say that they were working on figuring out what went wrong so it wouldn't happen again.

But it would happen again. Though maybe next time they might take out an entire country. What I'm saying might sound a little extreme, but honestly it isn't. And yes, if something happens that scientists don't stop, then people will bitch that should have been able to prevent it. That is human nature. The masses are never happy. But which would you rather... Mother nature wiping us all out, or people who claim to be smart doing something incredibly stupid?

Yes, science needs to take risks to make breakthroughs. People die when science goes awry but how many are saved when it discovers something great? Would I sacrifice a village to save a nation? Yep. A simple cost benefit analysis says science should proceed in its endeavor to create a weather machine. What might a success there do to reverse the desertification of Northern Africa?

Mother Nature has tried to destroy us for several hundred thousand years and now that we have her on the run, we're supposed to give up? Hell no. Make that bitch work for us.

And why is it uneducated people are always so quick to say that people who spent most of a decade in school and years in the field are stupid? How many degrees do you have hanging in your office?

[Saitochan]

I was watching a rerun of Law and Order last night. It was about a bomb that went off in some clinic that did genetic research. They were doing tests on unborn fetuses to see of they had any diseases or anything so the parents could decide if they want to abort the baby. Now I know that part wasn't made up. They actually do that. Their first suspect was a couple that was told their baby had cerebral pulsy, and when they decided to abort it found out the baby was perfectly healthy. I'm sure that really happens, which is fucking sad.

It ended up being the brother in law of the pregnant security guard that was hurt. There was some scientist that found a gay gene, and wanted to screen unborn babies for that as well. Well the grandfather of the baby wanted the father to have it aborted because the baby had the 'gay gene'.

Thankfully, I don't think science has ever really found a 'gay gene'. My problem is they're trying to. And I know damn well last night's episode will turn from fiction into reality. Parents who are against homosexuality will start aborting babies with the gene because they don't want a gay child. It will never occur to them that for their baby to have it, one of them has to have it. And if they aren't gay, well, that blows the whole theory to bits doesn't it? Of course they'd probably argue over which one had it and get a divorce.

Honestly, I think scientist are trying to play God, and that's dangerous. We as humans aren't meant to have that kind of knowledge.

Well, I have to disagree on this one. First of all, it's not that I'm pro-abortion or not, it's just that I agree with women having an option concerning wether or not they want to to have a baby, in case pre-conceptive methods don't work (or if they forgot to use a condom). Other case is when the fetus has some sort of handicapping syndrome or a disease incompatible with life (even if it's just potential), or when its birth threatens the life of the mother. Why not approve abortion in those cases?

Second of all, for what I've heard, the 'gay gene' actually exists (though it's more like a complex interaction between many genes and factors), but, contrary to popular belief, the mere fact of having such 'gene' does not necessarily mean an organism is gay. It's just that animals that have it TEND to be gay. That way, it can indeed be passed down to the next generation. But I doubt there's still anything certain about this (as far as I'm concerned, the so called 'gay gene' has only been studied in flies). But yes, for people who think homosexuality is an exclusively human behavior, they're totally wrong. Homosexual behaviors are a normal part of many animal's sexuality: it has been observed in more than a thousand species, including various mammals, monkeys and some marine birds.

Third, since you believe in God, am I right to assume you believe God has a plan for everything? If so, how are we, mere humans unable to comprehend God's divine logic, supposed to know scientists are NOT a part of such plan? If God has a plan for mankind, isn't it obvious mankind has to actually form a part of it?

[Saitochan]

And what about designer babies? Do you think it's right for a couple to be able to go to a doctor and pick out what genes they want their baby to get?

Or how about the fact that the over use of anti bacterial products are producing 'super bugs'. I don't think that scientific advancements are a bad thing completely. I just think that they need to use their heads more.

Once again, I support the fact of women having an option, wether it's about their babies being born or not, or about how they want their children to be. And Foeofthelance is right, if you can prevent your baby having some chronical and/or handicapping disease, why not do it?

And about the anti-bacterials producing 'super-bugs', it's not like the mere use of antibiotics make microorganisms stronger. It's the irresponsible and indiscriminate use of certain antibiotics that cause that (for instance, the use of penicilin for every little infection has indeed led to the appearance of penicilin-resistant strains of virus and bacteria). An example of this is the treatment of malaria in some third-world countries, where the United Nations send only one kind of antibiotic for the treatment of all of the malaria cases. I'm not saying that this is the UN's fault, but antibiotics are not something to be used lightly for each one and every case of bacterial or viral infecctions. There is a right way of using them.

[shinigamiinochi]

it's not science or scientists that are the problem, it's people who decide to use the science to do stupid shit. For example, my cousin just gave birth to a girl yesterday. Her doctors told her that there was a very good chance that the baby was going to have downsydrome. Her mother wanted her to abort the baby because she didn't think she could handle the stress of raising a baby with disabilities. The science that enabled the doctors to tell her about the possible disability is not at fault, it is my aunt's fault for being an idiot. Of course, the girl is fine, she has some lung problems, but she doesn't have any mental disabilities that they can tell so far. Science gives us facts and choices, that's all. It's up to us what we do with it. Just because a test might seem to cause a lot of bad things, like screening for homosexuality, it doesn't mean that the science can't be used for good. A lot of people say that stem cell research is 'playing god' but that stuff isn't alive and can help people that are alive, so in many cases, playing god is a good thing. Knowledge is power and all that crap.

[Guest Zyx]

Science is the pursuit of knowledge. And there is no gay gene >_>

[greenwizard]

Ok... I seriously give up. First of all Porkchop FUCK YOU! Don't you dare go calling me uneducated because I didn't go to college for years and have all kinds of degrees. It's called common sense. It's called being able to see the broader effect of things.

My point was, all scientists, now matter what kind, tend to push things farther than they should be pushed. They think because they can they have the right to do so. I am sorry if I believe screwing with mother nature is wrong. Things were designed the way they were for a fucking reason.

Oh, and on the superbug thing, yes, antibacterials are causing it. If you go around your home disinfecting everything constantly, your immune system is less exposed to germs. The consequence of that is that your immune system is weaker than that of someone who doesn't use those products.

And yes, I believe in God. But I also believe in free will. I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the master plan. But it is clear to me that I am fighting a loosing battle. So go ahead, keep destroying yourselves. Humans love their science because it makes life easy.

I use technology myself, but do I really have much of a choice? There are some useful inventions, I will admit it. But the world is overpopulated and polluted. And why? Modern science. Scientist are trying to solve the problem with more science, but mark my words, society will eventually revert back to medieval times because that will be the only solution.

But again, it's clear to me that I am fighting a loosing battle. I'm sure you'll start calling me crazy. My views tend to be a little extreme on some things, I know

Though my last question is; why is it that since I don't have a college degree that you all assume I'm uneducated and ignorant? That is what gets me the most. People assume I'm wrong because they think they know more than I do because they went to a fancy school.

I suppose you know more than me about what you majored in. But for those of you ignorant assholes that want to hold a fancy education over my head... I have an IQ of 147. The school I went to wanted to put me in the gifted program. I got in trouble in school because I was bored. The only thing that prevented me from going to college is serious emotional problems. I'm not stupid... far from it actually. So if anyone else wants to call me uneducated, ignorant, or stupid... go fuck yourselves with a sharp stick.

[PorkChopExpress86]

Ok... I seriously give up. First of all Porkchop FUCK YOU! Don't you dare go calling me uneducated because I didn't go to college for years and have all kinds of degrees. It's called common sense. It's called being able to see the broader effect of things.

My point was, all scientists, now matter what kind, tend to push things farther than they should be pushed. They think because they can they have the right to do so. I am sorry if I believe screwing with mother nature is wrong. Things were designed the way they were for a fucking reason.

Oh, and on the superbug thing, yes, antibacterials are causing it. If you go around your home disinfecting everything constantly, your immune system is less exposed to germs. The consequence of that is that your immune system is weaker than that of someone who doesn't use those products.

And yes, I believe in God. But I also believe in free will. I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the master plan. But it is clear to me that I am fighting a loosing battle. So go ahead, keep destroying yourselves. Humans love their science because it makes life easy.

I use technology myself, but do I really have much of a choice? There are some useful inventions, I will admit it. But the world is overpopulated and polluted. And why? Modern science. Scientist are trying to solve the problem with more science, but mark my words, society will eventually revert back to medieval times because that will be the only solution.

But again, it's clear to me that I am fighting a loosing battle. I'm sure you'll start calling me crazy. My views tend to be a little extreme on some things, I know

Though my last question is; why is it that since I don't have a college degree that you all assume I'm uneducated and ignorant? That is what gets me the most. People assume I'm wrong because they think they know more than I do because they went to a fancy school.

I suppose you know more than me about what you majored in. But for those of you ignorant assholes that want to hold a fancy education over my head... I have an IQ of 147. The school I went to wanted to put me in the gifted program. I got in trouble in school because I was bored. The only thing that prevented me from going to college is serious emotional problems. I'm not stupid... far from it actually. So if anyone else wants to call me uneducated, ignorant, or stupid... go fuck yourselves with a sharp stick.

My how quickly we degenerate to insults. You show yourself to have very poor debate skills and come off as patently uneducated when you jump to that, it seems to be pretty common with you. Someone disagrees with you and you cry your poor little eyes out about it. I must question why you get on an internet forum where you know people are going to disagree with you when you have such tender sensibilities.

If your god has such a brilliant master plan for everything, then why introduce problems that man would be unable to overcome without the aid of science? Why make him capable of reasoned thought to begin with?

And relying on an intelligence quotient to make yourself feel better, are you serious? The value of the IQ test has been pretty much cast aside by... oh right, people with degrees, so you wouldn't care. Stop crying about how the world doesn't understand you and go to school.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." --Galileo Galilei

[Guest Agaib]

I wasn't aware that you had no college degree when I made My post. When I said you sounded ignorant, it was because of the comments that you had made. The immature way that you formed your question also was an alarm for Me. Your poll was clearly designed so that anyone who disagreed with your particular point of view would sound stupid. Saying yes to your question of "Should they be able to do anything they want?" is ridiculous. No one here is advocating that anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want. I'm sure that no one here thinks scientists should be allowed to shoot people in the name of figuring out blood spatter patterns. But people aren't given a "I think most scientists are pursuing knowledge in a reasonable way" option . "No, they shouldn't play god" sounds awfully sympathetic compared to the other option, but forces the person being polled to feel as if they're agreeing to your "science is evil" argument. One does not have to believe science is evil in order to wish restrictions on how science is pursued. And then there's the "undecided" option, which is clearly not the correct answer for someone who has strong opinions that aren't represented in your other options (Myself for example.)

The point is, geneticists aren't advocating designer babies. Microbiologists aren't encouraging overuse of antibiotics (My mother is a PhD in microbiology who vehemently opposes people over prescribing antibiotics). If you want to blame someone blame doctors (they're the ones prescribing it).

Look, I don't care what your IQ is. I don't even care that you have no college degree. I'm merely annoyed by your ridiculous way of phrasing the question on your poll and the seemingly ignorant (at least to me) argument you've presented.

I have strong opinions about many things, I hope you don't mistake my accusations of you being ignorant as serious attacks. I have plenty of friends who have opinions on certain things that I think are extremely stupid. I don't think you're a bad person or anything. Clearly you posted this topic out of concern for humanity itself, which is noble enough. However, there does appear to be disagreement over whether your concern is entirely valid. Consider our opinions, if you still disagree, please take it in stride. My criticism of you isn't intended to start a flame war or emotional harm.

[Guest Jullians]

They were so focused on thinking about whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think about whether or not they should.

exactly.

i think it's good they have such an ambitions, but at some parts they just take it too far.

[greenwizard]

My how quickly we degenerate to insults. You show yourself to have very poor debate skills and come off as patently uneducated when you jump to that, it seems to be pretty common with you. Someone disagrees with you and you cry your poor little eyes out about it. I must question why you get on an internet forum where you know people are going to disagree with you when you have such tender sensibilities.

If your god has such a brilliant master plan for everything, then why introduce problems that man would be unable to overcome without the aid of science? Why make him capable of reasoned thought to begin with?

And relying on an intelligence quotient to make yourself feel better, are you serious? The value of the IQ test has been pretty much cast aside by... oh right, people with degrees, so you wouldn't care. Stop crying about how the world doesn't understand you and go to school.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." --Galileo Galilei

You are the one who started with the insults fucktard. I don't mind being disagreed with. But you called me uneducated. That right there is crossing a major line.

I am so fucking sick and tired of people assuming my opinion doesn't matter or I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have a wall full of degrees.

Is your self esteem so fragile that you have to hold your 'intelligence' over other people's heads to make yourself feel superior? It sure seems like it. You are not better than me. You are sure as fuck not smarter than me. You pretty much just called me stupid using big words thinking I wouldn't notice because I'm so stuipd. I bet you were laughing to yourself and everything. Well guess what, I do understand big words!

Intelligence is defined as the ability to learn by the way. Not what kind of book smarts you have. And again... you say the value of an IQ test has been cast aside by people with degrees. So everyone who reads this please take note... if you don't have a wall full of degrees, according to Porkchop you're stupid.

That is what I'm pissed off about cupcake. I tried to start a conversation, and some ignorant asshole comes along and calls me stupid because they think they are better than me.

Agaib... maybe I did use the wrong wording. I knew what I wanted to say, I just wasn't sure how to put it. I am pretty much just talking about the ones who do stupid shit, and the fact that there is nothing in place to keep them from doing so.

[Guest Zyx]

Science is the pursuit of knowledge, it cannot go too far. Because knowledge is good, without exception. Science is not responsible for how that knowledge is used.

Methods may be incorrect, but only if they contradict what was earlier discovered to be right.

For example: if science were to prove it was wrong to kill people, science would no longer be allowed to kill people.

Not that any of it matters. Many Worlds Theory and thus Predestination make us all lifeless data.

[Guest Monsterking]

well as far as im concerned as long as the guys in white dont destroy our planet in the name of science or start brining back the dead i am ok with them doing whatever the hell they like just so long as they understand that thier is some things better left undiscovored least we end up with an real life godzilla or even worse an real life resident evil scenario. oh and pork chop stop insulting greenwizard he has an right to his opinions and greenwizard please for the love of god stop insulting porky it is making everything worse i dont want to be dragged into this but i feel that i had to say something least this get out of hand

peace brothers and sisters of adult-fanfiction.org and may the furs be with you for all eternity "WOOOOOO!!"

[greenwizard]

Let me rephrase myself for those who won't simply dismiss anything I have to say on the sole base that I only went to college for two years and studied English.

I am in no way saying that all science is bad. There have been breakthroughs that have been good. But killer bees and designer babies are two examples I have used that not everything is good.

How can scientists not be held responsible for how their knowledge is used. That's what I really want to know. They may not encourage designer babies, but having the technology is an encouragement all by itself.

My entire point is... when any of them get the idea to do something, they don't stop to think about the possible consequences of what they're doing. Mother nature should not be screwed with... period. Every time biologists have done so bad things have happened. I'm not talking about medicine either, though some things they have come up with have been pretty far fetched.

And it makes me mad when everytime something goes horribly wrong the scientists involved step back and say 'wasn't my fault'. They take things too far because when people get killed no blame is placed with them.

Some of you may sit there and think well what does it matter if a few people have to die in order to find something to help others. What if one of those people who had to die was your best friend or relative? Would you still be able to shrug it off so easily?

Would you be able to sit at your best friend's funeral knowing he or she was dead because some scientist got the bright idea to try something that was phenominally stupid that went wrong? And how would you feel knowing your friend was dead and the scientist responsible for the bright idea was sitting happily in some labratory completely blamesless and trying some new hairbrained idea that will probably get a few more people killed.

It's easy to say that the cost of a few lives here and there is worth gaining knowledge, up until it hits a personal note. I have never had it hit a personal not for me thank god, but it's in my nature to be against injustice. I don't think it's right for people to place a value on a person's life, then determine whether or not it's worth more than the life of someone else. It's like nobles in medieval times sacrificing peasants to dragons to save their own skins.

I just think limits should be placed. If the idiots do wipe out an entire village, they should be made to answer for it. And saying that lives of hundresds of people in some other country is worth the slight possibly that scientists may be able to control the weather (never going to happen in my opinion) is ignorant. Maybe if they could be charged with murder they would think twice about trying something potentially dangerous.

[Raphaella]

Ok... I seriously give up. First of all Porkchop FUCK YOU! Don't you dare go calling me uneducated because I didn't go to college for years and have all kinds of degrees. It's called common sense. It's called being able to see the broader effect of things.

Common sense is what tells us, as we stand and look to the horizon, that the world is, indeed flat. What? It's true, I assure you.

Now on to more pressing matters, Greenwizard, I can also assure you that the Esteemed PorkChopExpress, is not one to just assume one is unintelligent purely based on the lack of certified certificates one may or may not hold. Forgive me, but I feel you are missing the context in which this word, uneducated, is being used. Uneducated, like the word ignorance, implies that you may not be wholly informed on your topic of choice. Where you have clear ideas to express, perhaps you are lacking in information that would provide you a sound base to combat people of differing opinions, people whom are aggressive in their tactics of debate.

It is not such a 'bad' term as you seem to imply. It only suggests through simply terminology that you do some more research on your topics. If the PorkChopExpress truly found your whole post ignorant, or uneducated, then I assure you he would not bother to post here, or point out the instances where he has found your research lacking. I may be wrong here, but forgive me for being the eternal optimist…

Any way I can tell you that 'Science' already controls the weather, and sprays us all with biological material and uses unassuming chemicals to subdue the masses. Here is a link to Harpp, where the US Government controls the weather http://www.haarp.net/.

And here is a link to a wiki about a movie I am sure you will find fascinating about genetic manipulation in the future and how it pertains to everyday life therein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca.

'Science' is already controlling the population of third world countries as you may or may not already know. The aid, the US and NATO sends to places like Indonesia and Haiti come with a code of ethics that the receiving countries must follow. Like in order to receive food subsidies all of the 'disadvantaged' women must have booster shots. Well, it turns out that these seemingly normal booster shots are in fact designed to make the women sterile and the shots are even forced upon the pregnant women, and when that happens well… 100% of the time the mother looses the child, no matter how far along she was.

I do not believe that 'Science' shall ever go too far. Science, true science, is a question. A question about everything and one that we each strive to answer, no question shall ever go too far. It is the way in which people choose to go about testing said question that we shall ever have cause to bicker over.

I have found, through copious amounts of research, that our own governments can and will and already has, implemented 'new science' and without even bothering to tell us. Insofar as designer babies are concerned, that has been around for quite some time. Chinese come here to determine the sex of any potential offspring because they don't want girls. Do I agree with this… I'm unsure, but it is better by far for them to choose a boy rather than go back to China and kill a girl child.

[Saitochan]

Though my last question is; why is it that since I don't have a college degree that you all assume I'm uneducated and ignorant? That is what gets me the most. People assume I'm wrong because they think they know more than I do because they went to a fancy school.

I suppose you know more than me about what you majored in. But for those of you ignorant assholes that want to hold a fancy education over my head... I have an IQ of 147.

Sorry . Didn't mean for it to come that way. I hope you didn't feel like I was treating you like you were inferior. Though the IQ thing might be overrated, I feel you're obviously smarter than me. I doubt education can make up for that, but you can't deny schooling and knowledge is a great tool nowadays.

But hey, don't mind Porkchop... you two only have very different views on this subject, so it's only natural for you to debate, but please don't spoil this debate thread for everyone else by beggining a war. Show us just how mature you are and let the insults slip right of you.

Same thing goes for you, PorkChopExpress86.

[shinigamiinochi]

yeah, there are some things that we try to do using science that we shouldn't, but my point is that we just need to use that technology for something else. There is no 'playing god' just people with different opinions. I mean, some asshole will probably try to use that 'engineering babies' to become the next Hitler, but that technology could also be used to try to fix deformations and serious problems that babies have, so I don't think that scientists should stop pushing the envelope, I just think that they need to be careful with who might try to use their tests for stupid things. Yeah, having the technology is an encouragment to do those stupid things, but that is kind of like saying that child porn is an encouragment for pedophilia. I don't think that the technology is going to make a difference in people's ability to be idiots or prejudiced. Yeah, it'll make it easier, but taking away the technology won't stop the problem. People have been able to hurt others way before it, but the same technology that might create these problems might also create solutions to other problems. What I am saying is that science and the path it has gone cannot simply be labelled as black or white and I think that science should continue to probe and test every facet of our world, it's our responsibility to use it well and not for prejudice.

[Raphaella]

I am glad this issue came up here, what you are referring to is called Eugenics. That was one of the ideas Hitler expressed in his movement during the holocaust. And I would like to point out that at the time we were using Eugenics here in the USA forcibly sterilizing people with mental disorders, or even sub par intelligence. It was not a secret and many prominent people of that time were advocates of Eugenics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Like I said earlier this is still going on today, but in a much more controlled and secretive manner. We will continue to find all types of nefarious uses for our science, but at the same time I would advise you to take a good look at what Eugenics was trying to accomplish. I am not an advocate of this, I just want you to really think about it.

There are all kinds of noble ideas that can be pursued with science, but at the same time they will seem unethical and downright inhuman in a sense. Like the use of human stem cells harvested from our own embryos. There can be no denying the benefit of these cells and yet… you need an aborted or otherwise discarded embryo to extract them.

We have to keep in mind too the question of universal human rights and what they are and what they mean to you, or if they even exist. We have a thread going about that too if my memory serves me well.

I also want to point out here that the people who rule us, Government, Bankers, Policy Makers, subscribe to a vastly different world view than most of us. Just read the tenets on the Georgia Guidestones. http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

If you conceder he vast amount of human life on planet Earth, and then you look at the disproportion of wealth and the amount of disease in the third world and still further you conceder our advances in medicine and science, why then are so many humans suffering? I am not sure my stance on this topic like I said before, but I feel it is akin to animal testing. Not that I would ever compare people to animals, never. I am just saying that you have to wonder where these people are getting their license to experiment on the third world populations and then you have to ask your self; If they made a breakthrough in these inhumane experiments that would some how benefit all man kind should I hold it against them? And if I did hold it against them would I still partake of their discovery?

[foeofthelance]

Raphealla, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. The problem doesn't lie with eugenics, which is little more than controlled evolution in action. The problem lies in the ways in which it was carried out. To whit; rather than trying to control who bred with who for which genes, it was instead determined that large portions of the gene pool shouldn't exist.

The difference when it comes to designer babies is that there is no such denial of the right to live or procreate. Rather the opposite, in fact, as it means that those people who would normally be unable to breed without high risk of a child born with a genetic defect would be able to have children normally. If anything, the ability to remove unwanted genetics might just be an improvement the human race needs; after all, there are only so many combinations which can be created with our genetics. If we could target the root causes of things like Downs Syndrome, Parkinson's, or any one of a host of other defects, its worth it.

Now, does that mean I support 'fashion' babies? Not really; It comes down to the same sort of problem I have with genetically engineering supersoldiers or creating robotic weapons. People just aren't responsible enough to acknowledge where they will run into problems, and there is the chance that the child would be forced to bear the stigma of what ever choices were forced upon it by the parents.