Separation of Church and State

[Masamune]

i believe that government is a formation of the people, for the people.

if those people are into a religion, who am I to tell them that their state should be separate from their religion?

(so long as those not agreeing with the state religion are allowed to leave for a place where they can do their own thing)

so, fundamentally, no, i'm not for it. But, I don't see a reason why a place as diverse as America (my home turf) should be controlled by one tiny minority religion. The others should be able to team up and overcome such a religious republic, and, if they can't, then they probably don't deserve to live in a religion-free government

Edited January 27, 2008 by Masamune

[Keith Inc.]

"In god we trust" was added to our coins in the 1950's. Not part of the founding father's construction of the government.

That, and the phrase in the pledge, were part of the response to McCarthy's march against communism. Since the biggest communist government was atheistic, the belief was that one had to be an atheist to be a communist.

It's not true at all. And since then, the government has twisted around very amusingly to avoid actually bringing the phrases to scrutiny.

There is no secular purpose to them, so they should not be something our secular government does. But until a case comes up that they cannot ignore or dismiss, it will remain. To me, this is a good sign about the government.

There are plenty of cases about government promoting religion. They regularly come down on the side of Church/State Separation. That's why the courts work so hard to avoid decisions about our money or the pledge. Or finding loopholes in those decisions that have come down.

if those people are into a religion, who am I to tell them that their state should be separate from their religion?

The point of church/state separation is to keep our government from all religions. What if a religion with dietary proscriptions were to get their litany legislated? What if the Mormons did away with all coffee and caffenated sodas in the nation? Or even in one state? One city? Reversing your question, if you are not into a religion (and i don't know anyone who is 'into' every religion), then who are they to tell you that you have to live as if you believed their litany?

I'm all in favor of people having their religion, and worshipping by their own beliefs, and even voting in accordance with those beliefs.

I'm against a church telling people how to vote, and i'm against the government adopting religious beliefs, promoting them in a manner that requires me to live by their beliefs.

[DemonGoddess]

I'm all in favor of people having their religion, and worshipping by their own beliefs, and even voting in accordance with those beliefs.

I'm against a church telling people how to vote, and i'm against the government adopting religious beliefs, promoting them in a manner that requires me to live by their beliefs.

COMPLETELY agree with ya there.

[Guest Monsterking]

this is america godforbid(Pun intended) if some man in robes tells us what to do

Peace out brothers and sisters of adult-fanfiction.org and may the furs be with you "WOOOOOO!!"

[shinigamiinochi]

ok, so the majority consensus seems to be that we don't want religious people telling us what to do. But, what about the other way around? how about it religious people, how would you feel if you're goverment told you what to worship? Not such a good thing either way.

[Avarion]

(I've quickly skimmed the responses but my own reply doesn't relate to them)

I do not believe in "God", or any gods, nor do I believe in fairies or the flying spaghetti monster, and all such related objects of fantasy are nonesense, thus I do not see why organisations which uphold them as 'supreme' should have any influence over the state. I don't think it's at all just or proper to give religion any special treatment, and as such I do not agree with faith schools, religious education as a compulsory element of the national curriculum, prayer rooms at the workplace, and so on. No special treatment is given to atheists or agnostics; nobody ever accomodates the non-believers, which is completely unfair.

Furthermore, in order to maintain freedom of the press, freedom of expression and free speech, church and state must be separated. Theocratic governments promote censorship in all areas from personal conduct to reading material; consider the United Arab Emirates as a prime example of this kind of censorship. Sodomy, pre-martial sex, cohabitation and criticism of Islam are just some of the things illegal in the UAE. Even Harry Potter books are banned from UAE schools because the story is thought to go against Islamic values.

[Psychostorm]

Evolution IS a religion. It is something someone believes in, even if it hasn't been fully proved. It's set on a theory and people believe it as the truth of our creation. So, in essence, it is a religion. And it's being taught in our schools.

I'm sorry, I don't think I was very clear on my standing in this. I actully think Chruch and State SHOULD be seperated. I am not a religious person, so I don't think Church should run the government. I was mostly just answering to a person who said something about "In God We Trust" being on money.

I don't wish any flame wars started on my comments.

(I do believe in God, I just have no faith in religions)

Evolution is not a religion, it is a theory(not to be confused with a hypothesis). In order for an idea to be considered a theory, it must go through the scientific method which is as follows

1. Define the question

2. Observe

3. Form a hypothesis

4. Preform experiments and collect data

5. Analyze the data

6. Interpret data and draw conclusions

7. Publish results

8. Retest

Then if the idea survives all that it becomes a theory. Not only has Evolution made it through the scientific method, not one shred of evidence has been found that goes against it. In fact, a lot of new evidence has been found to support it such as the discovery that human chromosome pair number 2 is actually a fusion of two ape chromosome pairs, explaining why the greater apes such as gorillas and chimps have 48 chromosome pairs and humans have 46.

Religion doesn't even make it past stage 3. If you want to take the Theory of Evolution out of schools, then I guess we should take out the Theory of Relativity, or Atomic Theory. The thing is, all our knowledge is based upon theories, not absolute facts. This is a good thing because it gives us a chance to expand our knowledge and grow intellectually. Religion is an intellectual dead end, explaining everything with "God".

Also, another thing I need to point out is that the Theory of Evolution is not an explanation for the origin of life, merely an explanation of the variety of life. Darwin's thing was the origin of species, not the origin of life, the universe and everything else. Science currently has no theory of abiogenesis.

Religion doesn't make sense to you because you don't take the time to learn and study it to understand it. And if you have done that... then it seems your mind has a hard time comprehending the ideas of religion in itself. Not trying to be mean... >_>; Look at religion with an open mind, it is the only way you can understand the aspects of it all.

I was forced to go to church on both sundays and wednesdays until I was 18 and I believed it and accepted it as fact. I read the bible cover to cover as well. The reason I believed in it was not because I had an open mind, it was because I had a closed mind, not willing to look at the Bible objectively and rationally. In my early 20's I came to realize that the Bible was a load of crap full of contradictions and logical falsies. Right off the bat in Genesis 1:4 it talks about God separating the light and darkness which makes no sense because darkness is only the absence of light. And where is the light coming from anyway since God didn't create the sun untill 3 days later. And then the moon is classified as a "great light" as the sun was, when we all know that moonlight is just reflected sunlight. Then later in Leviticus bats are classified as birds, I would think that God would know the species(or genus or whatever) that his creations belong too. This is just the tip of the iceberg, I could go on all day.

And yeah back on topic, I do believe in the separation of Church and State for America. I mean, if some people want to go and found their own little theocratic country somewhere else then that's fine, have fun with that. The countries in the Dark Ages pretty much were theocracies and you see how well that turned out.

[Supersonic Bitch]

Religion makes no sense at all, even if there's a god religion still makes no sense.

If Jesus existed and God was up in heaven religion still would make no sense at all....

So yeah, I don't think I'll favor religion in any discision.

I guess I should change "religion" here to "christianity". It makes sense when thought about this "Might Makes Right"-perspective ...or how someone put it: "God loves us with his bloodied prick".

Back to the original point: I really want to church and state to be wholly separated but... the current situation (at least in Finland) does not bother me. I am a practising chaos magician myself and I don't have to have any contact with indecent Christians, meaning the ones that can't figure out one very important difference between a cock and an opinion. You don't shove the latter one down other people's throats.

[Psychostorm]

I guess I should change "religion" here to "christianity". It makes sense when thought about this "Might Makes Right"-perspective ...or how someone put it: "God loves us with his bloodied prick".

Back to the original point: I really want to church and state to be wholly separated but... the current situation (at least in Finland) does not bother me. I am a practising chaos magician myself and I don't have to have any contact with indecent Christians, meaning the ones that can't figure out one very important difference between a cock and an opinion. You don't shove the latter one down other people's throats.

Sounds cool, what kind of spells do you know?

[Animedevildog]

This has proven to be a rather interesting debate, and I am glad that it has not turned into a flame war such as the likes that happen in other places. I also believe that the seperation of Church and State is an important issue in today's times. I believe that religious influences need to be removed as much as possible from the law and formation of law.

Here in Maine, the legislature passed, and the governor signed into law, a bill that would allow same sex marriages in this State. This law is now under attack by a small but highly vocal group of individuals who wish to have it amended in the State Constitution that Marriage is between a man and a woman. One of the biggest segments within this group spearheading this yet another attack on the personal freedoms that you and/or I enjoy is the Mormon Church. Yes, Christianity is at it again. (one of the tenants of the Mormon Church is that marriage is NOT between a man and another man, but between a man and his multiple child brides.) Now, What if you happened to belong to a particular belief that not only allowed same sex marriage, but actually encouraged it. It would seem that Christianity once again has shoved it's beliefs down your throat, and made you into a criminal for wanting to follow your own Belief's tenants.

I myself am not anti-religion per say, but I do take issue with a belief that seems to wish to force their views upon others. (I believe that if two men wish to live their lives as miserably as the rest of us, they should have every right to do so.) I also believe that people have the right to their beliefs, but should keep those said beliefs to themselves when their beliefs intrude upon the rights of others. Unfortunately, it seems that the rights of others is something two few people in this world seem to care about.

To those who wish to pass these various laws and moral judgements in the name of their God, I have this to say: It was Jesus himself who said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Basically, he was saying that we do not have the right to judge others, and that there is only one true Judge. For some reason, it seems that the Religious Right seems to forget that certain tenant of their own belief system. Could it be that they choose to believe only the aspects of their own religion that suit their own purposes? History does seem to point in that direction.

[Supersonic Bitch]

Sounds cool, what kind of spells do you know?

It's pretty difficult to describe magick because everyone has his/her own terminology (or no terminology at all which in my not so humble opinion is connected with greater understanding of the nature of magick). However, I am not that enlightened so ...I call them different spheres which can be used alone or together.

The ones that I possess are mainly Mind (my sixth sense -people have different sixth senses of course- is automatical mind-scanning: it reveals peoples' emotions, for example if they have sexual interests or are possibly dangerous to me) ...and advanced uses are for example changing the way how people perceive me: I can make myself appear as for example scary or benevolent ...and it helps lying. I can fake sorrow, friendship, love and so on and I can subtly influence others' minds, changing their feelings or opinions (changing opinions takes time) or make a direct order which a person can't overcome. (the last one is very difficult).

...and Enthropy, the magick of fate and possibilities. I can sense if it's a good or a bad idea to do something, change possibilities so that things that I want to happen, do happen ...or even things that have happened in the past and therefore change what is happening now. If I need something, it has a tendency to be there. For example finding an item I need or a kind of a person I want to meet. Again, very useful.

Magick tends to be strongest in desperate situations because is connected with strong will and need for a certain thing, whatever it happens to be. To quote Yoda: "Do or don't. There is no try." However, when one practises magick, trying to do things starts to work too (=the situations that are not so desperate, just a wish).

Sheesh, this has to be my masterpiece in the fine art of off-topic.

[Shunskitten]

where i live, church is church to people. we each have our own religions, and we don't really talk about them, exept for this one woman who people call the Jesus Lady

[Kurahieiritr]

Here in Maine, the legislature passed, and the governor signed into law, a bill that would allow same sex marriages in this State. This law is now under attack by a small but highly vocal group of individuals who wish to have it amended in the State Constitution that Marriage is between a man and a woman. One of the biggest segments within this group spearheading this yet another attack on the personal freedoms that you and/or I enjoy is the Mormon Church. Yes, Christianity is at it again. (one of the tenants of the Mormon Church is that marriage is NOT between a man and another man, but between a man and his multiple child brides.) Now, What if you happened to belong to a particular belief that not only allowed same sex marriage, but actually encouraged it. It would seem that Christianity once again has shoved it's beliefs down your throat, and made you into a criminal for wanting to follow your own Belief's tenants.

To those who wish to pass these various laws and moral judgements in the name of their God, I have this to say: It was Jesus himself who said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Basically, he was saying that we do not have the right to judge others, and that there is only one true Judge. For some reason, it seems that the Religious Right seems to forget that certain tenant of their own belief system. Could it be that they choose to believe only the aspects of their own religion that suit their own purposes? History does seem to point in that direction.

Hip Hip hoozah! To this post. I do come from a religious background that allows same sex and even triadic marriage, and has done so for several thousand years. WE supposedly have freedom of Religion however the laws state we are free to believe in other faiths, but we are not free to practice anything the Christians don't like ultimately here in America. I do know my Constitution and Bill of Rights very well. I am so sick of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses hounding me at my home I could commit a crime some days. Average door knocking and ramming things down my throat, 3 times per every single week because they heard from another neighbor that I'm a witch. Wrong religion, but it isn't as if they give a rat's ass about reality. They are trying to coerce me into converting for the money in my opinion.

Church and State need to be separated. However, since there is a huge hypocrisy among the organized sectors of religion, it will never truly be a reality for those of us who still get persecuted because we don't conform to the big trillion dollar industry standard known as Organized religion. I've heard rumors about the least tolerant and more Militant Christianity factions trying to pass state legislation back East to become legally Christian state Ruled. Our Constitution said to Separate, but those who are obsessed with their own sick little lala lands won't ever practice the things they preach!

I know genuine Christians also. I love them to pieces. They accept me for my (in their Opinions) oddities without trying to convert me. Those are the people who practice "Judge not Lest Though Shalt Surely Be Judged". One of my closest friends is Conservative in Finances and liberal in the tolerance department. She's also recently left the Holy Roller churches behind because she got yelled at for accepting human beings for themselves. Go figure that one out.