Moderator Exodus

[DemonGoddess]

URRRRK

Alrighty then. First of all I'm tired and cranky at the moment. So forgive me if I get a little short tempered here (I hope I don't, but I know me). I've been working a lot of hours the last few days, and having to come in and babysit this kind of bullshit when I SHOULD be sleeping is kinda frustrating.

This sniping back and forth at each other is quite plainly overreacting, and has GOT to stop. Yes, the damn removed posts in question are linked to elsewhere in this thread. If there was a problem with reading them altogether, I would've removed the link a long time ago. So would anyone else who has the ability to edit another user's post. It wasn't necessary to edit the post, so it wasn't done.

The paranoia being referenced to, I'm hoping was addressed when I posted in response to the user pm problems (and a few other things).

Here's another thing. If a person is actually having a problem with the board working correctly, I have no way of going into the thing and FIXING their issue unless I have a specific error code to work with. If there's a problem with what a user can or cannot do, spell it out. Let me know EXACTLY what you were doing, and what the board did, when you experienced the problem. How else, exactly, am I supposed to know where a specific board function problem is if I'm not given detailed information? Fer crying out loud, I do not read minds.

As to the member title thing, people play around with the magic marker from the IB store. It's all in how you take it. Either have a sense of humor about it or don't. THAT is up to the rest of ya, ain't it?

Now, as to changes upcoming with the board, I already said when any changes were to be made, I'd let you all know well in advance. Not only that, that I would detail out exactly what was being done, and WHEN it was being done. Some things I expect I can do before the forum software itself is upgraded. Some of it has to wait until AFTER the forum is upgraded. One of the things that will happen upon upgrade of the software, is that pre-existing modifications will be overwritten. They will then have to be ported back in. No big deal, and that will be done.

I've already found that some of the pre-existing mods are actually now written in features of the latest board version. Such as the "spoiler" mod. Some pre-existing modifications may not have been upgraded for later versions of Invisionboard. If so, they won't be upgraded with the board. I already know, and have downloaded, for example the IB Store mod that was written for the later versions in preparation. While I don't honestly have a use for that modification, apparently enough of you have fun with it that I made sure to have it downloaded so it can be added into the forum after upgrading it. These kinds of things are things you won't even see me doing, as they are done completely away from this forum and site.

For that matter much of what can and will be done is seamless, and done while the board itself is active. Some is simple maintenance and not even seen, except where the maintenance fixes a database issue which affects a board function.

As to banning, unless a user is doing something specifically to violate TOS, and has in fact been warned about it prior and still refuses to abide by that, well then sure, could be done. But if you mean in response to using a toy, no. No one gets banned for using a toy. That's plain silly.

In any case, my day off was just killed. Got called in to work.

[Guest snowfall]

To Ravenbell: Fnord, Sir. That is all I have to say to you.

To snowfall: Can I get banned from using this forum? I fear my throwaway remarks will cause offense to some sensitive soul, and I should not bare the guilt of this unintended crime for long before throwing myself in anquish from the highest mountain in The Netherlands, and then wandering through the daffodils for all eternity (or until the sea level rises) howling my spectral shame.

You won't get banned just because someone's feelings were hurt. Violating TOS is what will get your privileges removed until you are given a cool off period during a suspension. And if it becomes an ongoing problem, then banning would be used as a last option. Jaxxy is actually a very lenient person.

The forums and the site are AFF, not separate. So, if I find a troll of AFF who is a member here, the troll will be dealt with in both places. It was the same when flame wars on main and on the site blossomed over here when the offenders were banned over there.

For those who did not experience those wars, there will be guidelines posted. Already the owner has posted a new TOS.

Snow

[Guest snowfall]

To Ravenbell: Fnord, Sir. That is all I have to say to you.

To snowfall: Can I get banned from using this forum? I fear my throwaway remarks will cause offense to some sensitive soul, and I should not bare the guilt of this unintended crime for long before throwing myself in anquish from the highest mountain in The Netherlands, and then wandering through the daffodils for all eternity (or until the sea level rises) howling my spectral shame.

Oh! I also wanted to mention that your beautiful skill with the pen/keyboard is very impressive. It reminds me of a person who I had asked, a little over a year ago, to put those skills to positive use. I hope that you have become an author. AFF would truly benefit. By the way, what was your major in University?

You really are a subtle smooth talker.

snow

[Shirotaka]

-pops head in-

Go AFF!

Keep on keeping on folks!

-goes back into his hole with a newly discovered bag of cheetos-

[Ravenbell]

I also do not understand why people refuse to acknowledge that fact that Jaxxy owns the site, as well as the forums, and all decisions are made at her discretion, despite the small handful of dissenters.  It's almost as though people have forgotten that this forum is only continuing to stand because of her good graces.

So where was she? Why did she abandon the site for six months to flounder and struggle in her absence? And why is she only back now, after the trouble has passed and the site is working relatively well again? If you're going to point to the failings of the people who were in charge during the crash, you can't ignore the fact that she did nothing to help the situation. If Jaxxy knew the site was in dire straits, why didn't she do anything *then* if she cared so much?

I have no reason to trust her. I don't know if she's going to run off again at the first sign of trouble and leave us all in the lurch. It may be her site, but her needs should not take priority over the needs of the members and the users - *that* is what I'm scared of.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Ravenbell

[foeofthelance]

First for the old hands (those of us that are left, which probably isn't many), for now we should probably wait and see. Its true that for a long time we were pretty much a closed community, with a core group of maybe thirty people and a massive amount of lurkers. Now some of those lurkers are all grown up posters, so we have to remind ourselves not to play the old geezers who are stuck in the mud. Leader types come and go. Sucks that friends left, but maybe we can make some new ones or reform some into decent types eh?

Now, for the new folks. And I mean to include the Moderators and Admins in this as well, as looking at the posts most people in this thread joined the forum in the last three months. That's not exactly a bad thing, but tread cautiously on what to you is new ground. We were here first, and we're a bit set in our ways. You might own the site, both the rights and physical properties, but don't expect people to just sit up and play good dog because of it.

For example, Snowfall posted this earlier. She's one of the new Mods, and she's got the right and power, but she also provides a good example of how to scare an oldhand. So here's the quote:

I truly do not understand this interest, by a tiny faction of people, in the subversive posts that have been properly handled by TOS guidelines. The only explanation for the constant desire to expose members to that strife is an intentional desire to harm the environment. Intentional, with foreknowledge of the effects. If you are so interested, copies of those can be found on other sites, as I'm willing to bet you know.

The biggest problem? All but the last line smacks of censorship, at least to me. We're a community of fanfic smut writers, and nothing gets the hackles raised faster than a threat of censorship. I trust Snowfall's intentions were to mean well, but seriously. "subversive posts"? Redsliver, Nanaea, and the rest were pissed off at what they thought was a power grab. Right or wrong, that was their opinion on the matter. People are definitely going to be curious as to why such recognizable names just up and quit. Taking down their letters doesn't help (which Jaxxy already admitted might have been their original intent) as it just raises more questions about the new faces we're seeing.

So my suggestion? Talk. Don't assume, but ask questions. Most people are willing to listen, and can understand that things have to change. But when someone comes goose stepping in, barking orders and rearranging things, that's going to cause a bad backlash.

So now, now children. Play nice.

[Shirotaka]

One question..

This is a fiction archive yes?

Then why are we screaming at the wall about anything other than a bid fic or nasty review?

I guess that is two questions... Crap and I already typed them both... Oh well.

Let's all just go enjoy the site instead of biting each others heads off over dramatic politics.

Anywho, I am off to read some quality literature. (and some not so quality)

...

[lunaticfringe13]

I truly do not understand this interest, by a tiny faction of people, in the subversive posts that have been properly handled by TOS guidelines. The only explanation for the constant desire to expose members to that strife is an intentional desire to harm the environment. Intentional, with foreknowledge of the effects. If you are so interested, copies of those can be found on other sites, as I'm willing to bet you know.

Maybe because of use of the words "subversive," "strife," and the phrase "intentional desire to harm the environment," piques people's interest, especially if they haven't read these letters of resignation. I believe another post in this thread used the word "sabotage." Sabotage, to me, would be if the site was inaccessible, archives filled with stories about goat farmers, or users were redirected to some weird site with video of paint drying. None of those things have happened, the site is still here.

A member, who seemed to have read the resignations when they first appeared, started this thread to ask about it. For people coming in late, they're probably a bit lost in regards to all the hub-bub. Like myself.

AFF exists for a reason, as a safe place to exhibit our Constitutionally guaranteed, in the USA, right to free speech.

Would have shown that more than the opinions of a few angry staff members, the Admins are concerned about the site as a whole, and the right to free speech, which the former staff persons chose to exhibit in their letters, while recognizing that a few popular staff people decided to make changes, in the roles they played.

But by deleting/moving/hiding those posts, the right to free speech was squelched. I haven't read those letters of resignation, but if they said things like, "so-and-so is an ass," or "this person is a brain dead jerk-off," then that could be considered inflammatory and I could see those particular passages being edited or something.

As for deleting the mod resignations..

Those should have been sent to Jaxxy or whoever in private, NOT on the forum where everyone could read. That is no one's bisness other than the staff members. That is personal with the reason they are leaving.

I have seen those posts and everyone almost said the same thing.

They all mentioned DA.

No one knew they were leaving and every single one of them left on SUnday, within minutes of each other. The "staffs" leaving was deleted due to the fact of the underminding words that was said about Jaxxy.

I have now taken the time to read some of those letters. Hardly any mentioned DA (the old admin??), nor did they all say disparaging things about Jaxxy, it seemed they felt like they were not getting information about changes that may or may not have been coming to the site, which would have impacted how they did their jobs. Most, if not all of those letters, mentioned the friendships and good times they had had here. I think perhaps they wanted to say goodbye to the members they interacted with on a regular basis, rather than just disappear without a word?

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

IF you don't like the way the site is run, leave. There are many more members who are true to AFF. NO one is forcing you to stay here. This is a free site to everyone, and people have the nerve to complain about minor problems and issues.

SO it was nothing that Jaxxy or no one did to them to make them leave.

Well, they are gone now.

Please note, I'm not saying any of this to anger anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings. I'm trying to sort through all this myself, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I apologize if anyone is offended by anything I've said here.

[DemonGoddess]

foeofthelance---

(BTW, like the username )

I'm here because of what I know how to do with the forum software. That is truly the core of my function here. I've been working with Invisionboard for many years, and there is much that can be done to enhance and improve the board and how it works overall. That's all part of my upcoming tasks you know. I appreciate the fact that you are willing to wait and see just what is going to happen. Thank you for that, and understanding that some things just don't happen overnight, nor does a person necessarily have the time to MAKE some things happen overnight, due to real life obligations.

As to this being a closed community, in my opinion that was an inefficient usage of this board. It should be a place where all the archive users can meet and greet, as well as other things that are already done on the board currently. I think it's fun to get to know authors whose work I've enjoyed over the years. This is the place to do it, too. No reason why not, right? Yes, many of you were here first (in the forum, that is) , and maybe somewhat set in your ways, but if you think about it, we can in fact all get used to each others quirks and personalities. In any case, what's the harm in looking at this as all part of whole, and not a separate entitiy? It's truly not it's own animal, but a part of AFF as well.

Shirotaka--

Yes, the site's primary is the fiction archive, but this is also a part of the site. The discussion board of the site.

[Guest snowfall]

First for the old hands (those of us that are left, which probably isn't many), for now we should probably wait and see. Its true that for a long time we were pretty much a closed community, with a core group of maybe thirty people and a massive amount of lurkers. Now some of those lurkers are all grown up posters, so we have to remind ourselves not to play the old geezers who are stuck in the mud. Leader types come and go. Sucks that friends left, but maybe we can make some new ones or reform some into decent types eh?

Now, for the new folks. And I mean to include the Moderators and Admins in this as well, as looking at the posts most people in this thread joined the forum in the last three months. That's not exactly a bad thing, but tread cautiously on what to you is new ground. We were here first, and we're a bit set in our ways. You might own the site, both the rights and physical properties, but don't expect people to just sit up and play good dog because of it.

For example, Snowfall posted this earlier. She's one of the new Mods, and she's got the right and power, but she also provides a good example of how to scare an oldhand. So here's the quote:

The biggest problem? All but the last line smacks of censorship, at least to me. We're a community of fanfic smut writers, and nothing gets the hackles raised faster than a threat of censorship. I trust Snowfall's intentions were to mean well, but seriously. "subversive posts"? Redsliver, Nanaea, and the rest were pissed off at what they thought was a power grab. Right or wrong, that was their opinion on the matter. People are definitely going to be curious as to why such recognizable names just up and quit. Taking down their letters doesn't help (which Jaxxy already admitted might have been their original intent) as it just raises more questions about the new faces we're seeing.

So my suggestion? Talk. Don't assume, but ask questions. Most people are willing to listen, and can understand that things have to change. But when someone comes goose stepping in, barking orders and rearranging things, that's going to cause a bad backlash.

So now, now children. Play nice.

Excellent points all. Though things have changed in the past year, and no one wants to slash and hack, the upgrades will be something to get used to. I'm not even sure what all is being done and it scares me, too. I'm not a tech, so I don't understand it all, just that it will be more organized, there will be improvements in capability, it will be more secure, and there will be some goodies.

I have a hard time believing that enforcing TOS has anything to do with banning any writings on the site, of course, unless it is sued. That's a perfect example of a 'false analogy'. I can understand the trepidation though.

On a side note, Anne Rice just won a lawsuit against a fanfiction site, so consideration of that category will be put up for. Some things can't be helped. I would hope that some brave authors would have a place for the stories to be viewed.

And I'm not new to the forums. You apparently haven't been here long enough to know that I was admin on the forums. However, the forums have changed, drifting almost completely away from the site. The owner intends to correct that. Hopefully, author and reader discourse will become more vibrant. That is an exciting possibility. I do believe that this encouragement is the exact opposite of censorship.

The rules will most likely become less stringent and that will promote more discussion. Jaxxy is such a pussy willow. Hah! I said it again, Jax!     I'm not hard to get along with. Really, my only goal is to keep AFF on the net and to keep the authors and readers happy.

I'm very attached to it as it helped me through months of pain with a kidney tumor. It was my saving grace during that fearful period. So, even if not for myself, I have high hopes for the future of AFF and am extremely protective of it. That is why I tripped into this when I attempted to contact someone, anyone, to make sure that the domain name was renewed. I had left during the reign of the four and had no clue that this carnage was going on. Considering my protectiveness toward the site, I can't but help try to help get it back on its feet again.

Right now is rough for everyone. I'm only going to be doing small stuff, like saving troll, plague and minor records for transferral. Once we get access to a panel specifically set up for those purposes, those miscreants will be taken care of.

Also, over the three, almost four years of involvement at AFF, my employer, an ISP, has been very aware of AFF. I have asked for a company account for AFF's domain name, as opposed to a customer account. Since the entire staff, including the prez, knows of AFF, there would be no risk of tampering. My supervisor offered cost at one third of what would normally be paid. I have presented this offer to jaxxy and gave her the direct line to my super, who handles all domain name processes. I renew them. These people are like us, non-censorship, sexual diversity, etc. So, I have made the offer to Jaxxy and have yet to hear a decision.

Also, with my business and accounting education and experience, it is my goal to develop proper financial procedures. All of this is boring to most people. The only truly fascinating and exciting part of that department is the cross over with fund raising. I'm hoping that there will be an area for all departments involved in advertising and sales to congregate and coordinate. Not just throw out ideas, but to actively promote the site as a suitable place to spend advertising dollars.

Most of the stuff I'll be doing, you guys won't even see, unless it's the disappearance of minors and the like. The only reason I'm out here on the board right now is to help members look toward a brighter future. To show them that people care enough to help. To pull them out of the current state of shock. To re-assure them that they are safe. To mentally and emotionally draw them into the future with AFF.

Yes, there will be changes. And don't think it's not scary to me either! I love the place. I've seen the site down under all administrations, under all techs, and because of techs. But, through hard work, the site has always been resurrected. And until I breathe my last breath, I'll do everything I possibly can to keep that baby there.

And that is why I am here, what I am doing, and what I purpose to do. I'm probably the oldest on staff, so if you don't like me, you won't have too terribly long to wait. Ah! I know one person that is one month older than me! And you know who you are! snicker.     In the meantime, I'll be hanging out.

Snow

[foeofthelance]

As to this being a closed community, in my opinion that was an inefficient usage of this board. It should be a place where all the archive users can meet and greet, as well as other things that are already done on the board currently. I think it's fun to get to know authors whose work I've enjoyed over the years. This is the place to do it, too. No reason why not, right? Yes, many of you were here first (in the forum, that is) , and maybe somewhat set in your ways, but if you think about it, we can in fact all get used to each others quirks and personalities. In any case, what's the harm in looking at this as all part of whole, and not a separate entitiy? It's truly not it's own animal, but a part of AFF as well.

Actually, I meant that as a community it wasn't growing. We might get one, maybe two new posters a month, and they didn't tend to stay long. It sort of stayed that way for a long time, until about three months ago, when suddenly we had an influx of people posting. That might have helped scare some people into thinking 'New Leadership = Bad'

I have a hard time believing that enforcing TOS has anything to do with banning any writings on the site, of course, unless it is sued. That's a perfect example of a 'false analogy'. I can understand the trepidation though.

Sorry Snowfall, if I wasn't clear. I wasn't questioning the removal of the letters as an act of censorship, I was trying to point out that your post questioning why people would want to read them as being questionable. It was mostly intended as a "Be Careful: This Can Be Hazardous!" kind of warning. As I said, I trust your intentions, or at least what I've seen so far.

And I'm not new to the forums. You apparently haven't been here long enough to know that I was admin on the forums. However, the forums have changed, drifting almost completely away from the site. The owner intends to correct that. Hopefully, author and reader discourse will become more vibrant. That is an exciting possibility. I do believe that this encouragement is the exact opposite of censorship.

Well, then either you set up a new account for the purpose of moderating, or your talking about another forum. Looking at your member info you joined the tenth of last month. I've been here since the beginning, way back in '06. (Way back? It was a year and 10 months ago! I'm dating myself with that one!) Personally, I can't remember seeing you listed as a mod or admin for any of the forums. You might have been on the main site as an Admin, but I don't recall anything of the like here.

As for drifting, I'm not really sure it did. Yeah, we discussed a lot of politics and aimless babble, but that's because we felt comfortable with it. The forum became about more that just writing, even though there was still plenty said about that. Personally, I think trying to force it to paralell the archives is somewhat of a bad idea. The Archives are our stories, but the Forum is our community, and a community is more than just the products it turns out. Its the people who live there and the ideas that they share as well. Start alienating them, even through good intentions, and you might end losing the community.

[Guest Knorg]

Oh!  I also wanted to mention that your beautiful skill with the pen/keyboard is very impressive.  It reminds me of a person who I had asked, a little over a year ago, to put those skills to positive use.  I hope that you have become an author.  AFF would truly benefit.  By the way, what was your major in University?

You really are a subtle smooth talker. 

snow

...I did History.

And, uh, I, um,

I don't write much of anything anymore.

Regarding the forums/Site:

It seems like the forums could take on all of the functions of the old yahoo groups easily enough... There's already troll reporting and so on here. I don't have access to the usage statistics but as a former reg/current lurker on the forum it seems to me that only a tiny proportion of the site's writers and readers actually use the forum at the moment, possibly with more FAQ indications along the lines of "and if you have a troll to report, go to the forum" might get more people in, as it did with the groups.

[DemonGoddess]

The forums will be taking over the functions of the Yahoo groups. That's all part of what's going to happen in the near future. Once that substructure to replace them is up (you'll see 'em when I finish that up) then yes, links to those subforums will be on the archive, instead of to only an email address, or formerly the Yahoo groups.

Knorg,

What you're saying about a tiny proportion of the site users overall using the forum is right. That's part of what we all want to change. This is the community for the whole, so we need to USE it that way. Whether for socializing, or reporting, or whatever.

Anyway, provided my job doesn't get all squirrelly again, and I have yet another damn schedule change ; I should be able to do a little bit of that yet today (some of the forum restructuring), after I get home from work later this evening.

As I've been saying all along, much of what I'll be doing immediately you guys won't even see until your next login, and won't impact the board at all, other than a visible difference in structure in some places.

Snow,

As to what the upcoming upgrade entails insofar as you being a bit leery of potential problems, the bulk of anything I do, I do offline first, then I test it to be sure it will work, and THEN I make the changes. At least that's how I do it for modifications. By doing things that way, I've found over the years that adding a mod to a board like this is actually not much of a hassle for the users. It's only when I've just gone ahead and done it, without testing my changes that I've run into problems before. During the actual upgrade process, the board itself will be offline for MAYBE a few hours. Depending on how long it takes to convert its older self to its new self. I won't get into the details, because unless yer a geek for this kind of thing, it'll bore you to tears.

[Ravenbell]

Really, my only goal is to keep AFF on the net and to keep the authors and readers happy.

I'm very attached to it as it helped me through months of pain with a kidney tumor. It was my saving grace during that fearful period. So, even if not for myself, I have high hopes for the future of AFF and am extremely protective of it. That is why I tripped into this when I attempted to contact someone, anyone, to make sure that the domain name was renewed. I had left during the reign of the four and had no clue that this carnage was going on. Considering my protectiveness toward the site, I can't but help try to help get it back on its feet again.

Snow, if Jaxxy decides to quit the site again tomorrow and insists no one else can play, are your loyalties going to be to her or the the health and safety of our bondage porn?

Frankly, I'm more comfortable with the idea of a group of people controlling ownership and operation of the site, so the place doesn't turn into some kind of cult of personality the way it is now. I don't see any safety nets here anymore. I don't care who was in the wrong, but I know I'm not comfortable with Jaxxy issuing directives from on high, with no accountability to anyone. She creeps me out with her "happy writing" and her ego-centrism.

Or to put it as simply as possible, will this be her site, or our site?

[NinjaGaijin]

Or to put it as simply as possible, will this be her site, or our site?

It's simple. Since she pays the bills, this is Jaxxy's site.

Well, unless you want to buy AFF shares...

[Ravenbell]

It's simple. Since she pays the bills, this is Jaxxy's site.

Well, unless you want to buy AFF shares...

I'm not asking about the damn money. I want assurances that the site's functionality isn't going to depend completely on the whims of one person who apparently thinks her "sunny personality" merits multiple mentions in the site updates. If it's Jaxxy's site, and *only* Jaxxy's site, then I fear there may not be room for the rest of us and our concerns.

[Guest Knorg]

Well, long as there's room for the stories.

Knorg don't like nobody gettin' 'twixt Knorg and porn. Gets messy, and knorg don't got no kleenex. Not no how.

[Guest snowfall]

I'm not asking about the damn money. I want assurances that the site's functionality isn't going to depend completely on the whims of one person who apparently thinks her "sunny personality" merits multiple mentions in the site updates. If it's Jaxxy's site, and *only* Jaxxy's site, then I fear there may not be room for the rest of us and our concerns.

I've looked at your profile and through your posts, and I must say that I am unimpressed. I do what I do for free, for me, because 'I' love AFF. You appear to have a desire to actually own and run it. Read back through your own posts.

Accept that Jaxxy owns it. You don't. She can take it off the internet tomorrow and there is nothing that anyone, including you, could do about it. Appreciate the fact that despite all the turmoil, she has found it worth her trouble to keep it up, despite people constantly picking at her, and anyone else involved in keeping the site up, for people like you. Appreciate that it isn't your ass on the line when the producers, lawyers and managers, knock on the door...yeah, it has happened. She's the one that gets sued. Not you.

Get over yourself and maybe I won't label you as the first troll I will take out when my team is ready.

Snow

[EveKnight75]

I'm gonna put my neck on the line here.

If you're going to put Ravenbell on a troll's list, I shall have to ask you to do the same for The Lurker.

Ravenbell's only posts on the entire forum are on this thread - that's true. At the same time, she is fully entitled to her concerns. If this is truly an area for free speech, she should have the right to vent, even against the administration.

In case you haven't noticed, she isn't the only one who's skeptical about Jaxxy's posts. Are you going to deem everyone who doesn't like Jaxxy and admits it a "troll"? I should hope not, because you had stated in an earlier post that you accept that everyone has a right to dislike the administration and say so honestly.

The Lurker has displayed an appalling lack of respect for other members on this board each time he has defended Jaxxy. I don't mind his defending Jaxxy, but I do mind the fact that he has managed to directly insult three different members so far, including AzaleaWood, who had not been rude in the first place.

The Lurker may have been a former mod, but he is not a mod at the current moment. Even if he were, it wouldn't give him the right to disrespect other members in his efforts to defend Jaxxy. That's breaking the TOS.

I have seen shit-slinging from several members, including moderators (I won't name them here). This is shameful.

I'm trying my best not to say too much on the forums on this matter. I have my opinions, but I try my best to maintain a neutral air here because it is my job to do so. Still, I have my limits.

Can I please ask something of the staff, at least? Could you please stop speaking out against the former head mods on a personal level? I don't care if you had your own personal issues with DarkAvenger - this is not the place for it. This thread is about the former forum mods, not the "Famous Four" (as someone so eloquently termed them). Could you please stop dismissing and sugar-coating the concerns and comments of the regular members? Every concern has its validity and I don't think anyone appreciates sugar-coated dismissals because they're not idiots. Scratch that - we're not idiots, because in addition to being a moderator, I am a regular poster and thus a regular member. A moderator's job is to act calm and neutral despite personal opinions and feelings and to answer the concerns of members as directly and honestly as possible. If it means bruising your ego a little bit, so be it.

I admit, it would have been better to leave the resignation posts up. They were written because the mods who left felt that the members deserved a frank explanation. I have a fairly good idea of why they left - considering their reasons, the resignations were quite neutral.

However, there's no turning back. The resignations have been taken down from the site and I'm not sure there is a way to undo the action.

However, I can say that the move wasn't pre-planned. Don't you think that I would've been in on it if it had? I can tell you right now that I wasn't in on it. The reason the mass exodus was pulled off so efficiently is because we pretty much manage to think on the same wavelength most of the time. It scared me at times.

For those of you who no longer trust the archives, follow the example of Knorg. Take your stories off the site. If you want to stay on the forums, you'll need to keep your archive registration as well so don't delete the profile altogether.

If you feel more comfortable with the site in the future, you can put your stories back up. Do it once you've decided that Jaxxy isn't out to make this her "personal site" or once the ownership has switched hands (which it may in the future).

Knorg had a disagreement with the site once. He took his stories down and left quietly. No rants, no insults, no accusations - clean and quiet with explanations sent to a few people who were directly affected. I admire him for it because that's the way it ought to be done.

And before you say anything else, I have this to say. The moderators have admitted that they can't work with Jaxxy. However, they haven't stated things like "and it's entirely her fault" or "I can't stand the new owner and tech". Jaxxy, however, has stated that we never stated what our issues were (we have stated them constantly and consistently), no one had any intentions of sabotaging the site (they just wanted to step down and be regular members like before), no one "worshiped" DA (we've had our disagreements before and some of us did find the Yahoo! spam slightly immature).

We've gone too far, and yet we haven't gone far enough. No argument is complete unless all parties involved are present to offer their side of the story. Yet doing so would cause further turmoil and it may escalate to an uncontrollable level.

-------

I've done nothing but rant in this post.

I don't regret what I've said and I stand by it. It was about time I vent.

I'm not usually prone to hissy fits, rants, shit-slinging, or being a drama queen.

So I apologize for my unprofessional behavior. It is very unbecoming of a moderator.

And I hope that someone finally locks this thread and keeps it posted for all to see because enough is enough and I don't want to hear any more until everyone's calmed down but getting rid of this altogether will only cause more problems in the future whereas keeping this visible is a sign of progress.

[DemonGoddess]

NO ONE is going on a troll list for having legitimate questions. To my way of thinking, that would be an unacceptable action. Rants are okay. I may not like them, but you all need to vent now and again, and I understand that.

Having said all that, I will say this now.

I think this thread has been done to death. You all have legitimate concerns. Bring them to me privately if you would. Pm or email, or if you want to find me in a messenger, that would work too. I'm on three of the damn things and easily accessible. I have no problems in talking to any one of you.

If I see any more posts that I consider inflammatory in any way, shape or form to this topic, I will be locking it. I don't give a damn who posts it.

Discuss things. Argue with each other if you need to. Get fiesty. But no more picking each other apart, making personal attacks on one another over something that is over and done with. We all need to move forward, and accept that there is no going back. You have a different crew in some places, and old crew that you never were able to access before for the archive (and can now, here), plus a few who stayed WITH us in the forum from the old moderators.

I've already invested in the last 4 days alone something along the lines of 20 man hours into what I'm doing to make this a more functional forum (that's in a tech sense, has nothing to do with any of you as posters). I'd really like to be able to go back to doing that, and not having to sift through any more of this inflammatory bullshit.

Lastly, I apologize to all of you for having not stepped in previously to stop any personal attacks. Those are unacceptable to me, and always have been.

[Ravenbell]

Thanks, Eve.

I got my answer.

[Guest The Lurker]

looks up from playing with the huge ball of yarn wrapped all around her body and ears and mouth

Oh wow, giggles

I have me new labels...

I am a troll... oh and disrespectful.

All in a days work.

But anyways...

I'm trying my hardest not to loose my temper any more. Hence the reason I post on other sections of the forums. But coming here and seeing my name mentioned over something that was done last month, sorta got me.

Eveknight75

If you have issues with me, then take it up on PM or even Email.

I noticed that I was the only one mentioned in your post other than Ravenbell . I admit some of my posts when I took up for Jaxxy were rude but as you said, this is a free speech place. I said what I had to say and then left it be.

As for the way I stood up for Jaxxy, she is a friend and I would do the same for any of my friends here. Not gonna mention no names because I don't want them to be accused of playing favorites.

The posts have been brought to my attention, I have been spoken to about the way I responded so please, do not bring them up again.

goes back to playing with her huge ball of yarn while purring

[Solaris]

Eve, in the past several posts, you never said you had issues working with Jaxxy and you're a mod so if you do have issues working with her. Let her know them.

Also, if you have a problem with another member, whether or not they are a mod or a member, PM them and talk it over. Don't blast them publically.

Beth

[Guest The Lurker]

Throws her ball of yarn at Solaris

CATCH!!!!!!!!!!

[xax]

Oh, this is not going to end well. Time for closing words.

I'm not asking about the damn money. I want assurances that the site's functionality isn't going to depend completely on the whims of one person who apparently thinks her "sunny personality" merits multiple mentions in the site updates. If it's Jaxxy's site, and *only* Jaxxy's site, then I fear there may not be room for the rest of us and our concerns.

Jaxxy is the one making the top-level decisions-- the overarching stuff, but regarding the site and the forums the mods have a fair amount of personal discretion, which sometimes doesn't help things. If you've got a concern you don't think Jaxxy would take seriously (or whatever), you can always try contacting another moderator, although there are limitations to what we can do.

Well, long as there's room for the stories.

Knorg don't like nobody gettin' 'twixt Knorg and porn. Gets messy, and knorg don't got no kleenex. Not no how.

There are times when I would just like to sit back and cry out "But what about the porn?!" But now I'm a mod so I actually have to do stuff. Seriously, seriously I am going to try and polish the site up to make everyone's pornmongering as easy and enjoyable as possible.

I've looked at your profile and through your posts, and I must say that I am unimpressed. I do what I do for free, for me, because 'I' love AFF. You appear to have a desire to actually own and run it. Read back through your own posts.

Accept that Jaxxy owns it. You don't. She can take it off the internet tomorrow and there is nothing that anyone, including you, could do about it. Appreciate the fact that despite all the turmoil, she has found it worth her trouble to keep it up, despite people constantly picking at her, and anyone else involved in keeping the site up, for people like you. Appreciate that it isn't your ass on the line when the producers, lawyers and managers, knock on the door...yeah, it has happened. She's the one that gets sued. Not you.

Get over yourself and maybe I won't label you as the first troll I will take out when my team is ready.

Snow

Generally speaking people don't like their noses rubbed in the fact that ultimately every web site is a dictatorship. A good administrator accepts that there's more than ownership issues here-- the users owe it to the admins for the site's existance, but the admins also owe the users for the site's activity, and acting like it's a one-way street is a good way to alienate the userbase.

A healthy online community tolerates a lot of dissent-- you can never please anyone, but what will displease a lot of users more than most anything else is the dissidents not being able to voice their opinions, however unpopular they may be.

(excerpting from the next posts because they're long)

[...]

If you're going to put Ravenbell on a troll's list, I shall have to ask you to do the same for The Lurker.

Ravenbell's only posts on the entire forum are on this thread - that's true. At the same time, she is fully entitled to her concerns. If this is truly an area for free speech, she should have the right to vent, even against the administration.

In case you haven't noticed, she isn't the only one who's skeptical about Jaxxy's posts. Are you going to deem everyone who doesn't like Jaxxy and admits it a "troll"? I should hope not, because you had stated in an earlier post that you accept that everyone has a right to dislike the administration and say so honestly.

The Lurker has displayed an appalling lack of respect for other members on this board each time he has defended Jaxxy. I don't mind his defending Jaxxy, but I do mind the fact that he has managed to directly insult three different members so far, including AzaleaWood, who had not been rude in the first place.

[...]

Can I please ask something of the staff, at least? Could you please stop speaking out against the former head mods on a personal level? I don't care if you had your own personal issues with DarkAvenger - this is not the place for it. This thread is about the former forum mods, not the "Famous Four" (as someone so eloquently termed them). Could you please stop dismissing and sugar-coating the concerns and comments of the regular members? Every concern has its validity and I don't think anyone appreciates sugar-coated dismissals because they're not idiots. Scratch that - we're not idiots, because in addition to being a moderator, I am a regular poster and thus a regular member. A moderator's job is to act calm and neutral despite personal opinions and feelings and to answer the concerns of members as directly and honestly as possible. If it means bruising your ego a little bit, so be it.

[...]

And I hope that someone finally locks this thread and keeps it posted for all to see because enough is enough and I don't want to hear any more until everyone's calmed down but getting rid of this altogether will only cause more problems in the future whereas keeping this visible is a sign of progress.

I agree. Although, you do have other options open if you want to talk specifically to the other admins.

[...]

Discuss things. Argue with each other if you need to. Get fiesty. But no more picking each other apart, making personal attacks on one another over something that is over and done with. We all need to move forward, and accept that there is no going back. You have a different crew in some places, and old crew that you never were able to access before for the archive (and can now, here), plus a few who stayed WITH us in the forum from the old moderators.

I've already invested in the last 4 days alone something along the lines of 20 man hours into what I'm doing to make this a more functional forum (that's in a tech sense, has nothing to do with any of you as posters). I'd really like to be able to go back to doing that, and not having to sift through any more of this inflammatory bullshit.

Lastly, I apologize to all of you for having not stepped in previously to stop any personal attacks. Those are unacceptable to me, and always have been.

Seconding this-- this has been a tumultous time and there has been CHANGE and all that, but oh my god fffff I would like more reasonable discourse and less yelling at other users. Or something.

I'm trying my hardest not to loose my temper any more. Hence the reason I post on other sections of the forums. But coming here and seeing my name mentioned over something that was done last month, sorta got me.

Eveknight75

If you have issues with me, then take it up on PM or even Email.

I noticed that I was the only one mentioned in your post other than Ravenbell . I admit some of my posts when I took up for Jaxxy were rude but as you said, this is a free speech place. I said what I had to say and then left it be.

As for the way I stood up for Jaxxy, she is a friend and I would do the same for any of my friends here. Not gonna mention no names because I don't want them to be accused of playing favorites.

The posts have been brought to my attention, I have been spoken to about the way I responded so please, do not bring them up again.

You were probably mentioned in EveKnight75's post because you have been one of the most vitriolic posters in this thread and, as Eve said, if snowfall is considering Ravenbell as a troll she ought to consider you one too considering your recent posts in this thread have been highly inflammatory. Your first few posts were perfectly fine, but it's not acceptable to attack anyone who expresses dislike for the current administration team any more than it's okay to attack the current administrators themselves.

Eve, in the past several posts, you never said you had issues working with Jaxxy and you're a mod so if you do have issues working with her. Let her know them.

Also, if you have a problem with another member, whether or not they are a mod or a member, PM them and talk it over. Don't blast them publically.

I think there's a fine line between being open with the users and adding to the current disarray, but I'm not quite sure where precisely that line is. Ultimately, Eve's post was mostly in response to Snowfall's and had little to do with her personal opinions about Jaxxy & the new admins-- I think both posts probably ought have been sent in private, but they weren't.

Really, people, there are advantages to talking it over in private. Then again, there are also disadvantages.

---

Which brings me to my closing remarks! This thread contains a lot of debate about the future of adult-fanfiction.org from a lot of people taking many different positions on the issue. It's got a lot of community value and I'd hate to see this thread vanish as the resignations thread did, but this is getting uncivil and I don't anticipate any more illuminating remarks, just a slowing crawl of increasingly antagonistic remarks. So it's my decision (along with DemonGoddess061 explicitly and EveKnight75 implicitly) that this thread should be locked.

The state of the forum rules are kind of in flux right now, but we're not okay with public posts personally attacking others. Try to be civil, even when you really don't want to be.

As usual, direct all complaints to the person you're complaining about.