Homophobic Attacks

[Palantean Writer]

Hi all.

I'm keen to know for the sake of adding at least reasonably realistic homophobic stuff into the background of a gay story - how often do gay men suffer homophobic attacks? Is it only about once every six months, or just about every time you step out your front door? Does it make a difference whether you're camp or not, your build, urban/rural environments? Do you get mostly verbal stuff but the occasional physical attack, is most of what you hear casual and not directed, or is a lot of it directed?

Not that I'd want to include an awful lot of homophobia in my story, but I'm wondering how much goes on out there and to keep the level that my characters have to put up with to a realistic degree.

Thanks in advance.

[Shadowknight12]

It depends on your definition of "attack" and the culture, which as you know, varies from place to place. Remember that it is VASTLY more common for gay people to suffer verbal attacks than physical ones. If the community is isolationist, rural/suburban, lacks diversity (cultural/ethnic/religious/socioeconomic), it's more likely that any sort of attack will happen and often. In a populous, multicultural, densely urban area, it's less likely to happen simply because there's just so much people that eccentricities tend to be overlooked. The gay person itself will also be a factor. If they are outward in their behaviour, if they engage in PDA, if they wear clothes or signs that identify them as such, if they "flaunt" (for a lack of a better word) their sexuality, etc., the amount of attacks will increase.

The thing here is that you must get to know your character(s), the place where they live in and the people around them. That's the only way you'll be able to judge the frequency and intensity of attacks, if any. What is "realistic," if that's what you're looking to add to your story, depends on the factors mentioned above. If the person is in a big city, the most they can expect is gossiping behind their backs, name-calling and (especially) indirect insults. Most of the time, the person will complain that people start to "avoid" them once they learn of their sexuality, since that's the socially acceptable thing to do to a person one dislikes. Less populated and/or tolerant environments will make things gradually worsen.

Of course, this assumes a place other than San Francisco or neighbourhoods where gay presence is very high, since discriminating against them would be as troublesome as using the n-word in Harlem if one is not African-American.

Hopefully that helps.

[Palantean Writer]

Ah, fantastic, shadow. Thanks for the input.

Well, all four of my characters are around the age of 20. One camps it up, another is a wiry hardcase and the other two tend to keep their sexualities to themselves anyway. One, a skinny, nerdy lad, came out near the end of school at 18 and came out to his colleagues in a generic council-type office. The last one has remained publicly closeted (if that makes sense) just to lead a quiet life.

I hope the above doesn't reduce my characters to terribly dull-sounding cliches or give too little information to be of any use, but I hope that's enough information to make getting an idea of how much homophobia they might deal with more defineable.

Oh, and they live in a medium-sized city with a fairly enthusiastic arty/nightlife/eccentric population. Nothing mad, it's just quite a desirable place to be, without being achingly decadent like, say, LA.

[Shadowknight12]

Ah, fantastic, shadow. Thanks for the input.

Well, all four of my characters are around the age of 20. One camps it up, another is a wiry hardcase and the other two tend to keep their sexualities to themselves anyway. One, a skinny, nerdy lad, came out near the end of school at 18 and came out to his colleagues in a generic council-type office. The last one has remained publicly closeted (if that makes sense) just to lead a quiet life.

I hope the above doesn't reduce my characters to terribly dull-sounding cliches or give too little information to be of any use, but I hope that's enough information to make getting an idea of how much homophobia they might deal with more defineable.

Oh, and they live in a medium-sized city with a fairly enthusiastic arty/nightlife/eccentric population. Nothing mad, it's just quite a desirable place to be, without being achingly decadent like, say, LA.

No problem, it's what we're here for.

The one that camps it up would have it worse, unless he's smart and stays in a circle of like-minded people. He'd experience heavy malicious gossip and very likely name-calling. He'd experience lots of avoidance as well. If he stays with a group, that should be all. If he likes going to places alone, he might get vicious verbal lambasting from rowdy drunkards or just people on a bad day, or might even get beaten up if he's going through a rough part of town.

The wiry hardcase might have it better, if he inspires fear. Otherwise, same as the others.

The one who came out with his colleagues will undoubtedly experience office gossip and possibly pranks, if he's the only gay person in the place, though it depends on the maturity and tolerance of his coworkers. He's not likely to be promoted unless he's truly excellent at what he does. And even then, they'd probably promote the office drunkard or harasser before him.

The closeted one will likely lead a pretty normal life, assuming he keeps everything low-key and disguises lovers as friends. Unless he trusts the wrong person and the secret comes out, in which case he's likely to lose a lot of acquaintances, and possibly even friends.

This was taking into consideration your demographic data. I don't think they're cliché, you haven't given us enough information to make that call.

[wanderingaddict]

I've never known anyone who was physically attacked because of their sexuality in my area. I like a lot of what Snight emphasized, and I'd fully agree save for some minor clarifications. What he said about the camp-gay is definitely true, except a camp-gay probably know how and when and where he'd need to defend himself and know how to avoid the potential "attack" places when necessary, but on the other hand attacks don't usually just "happen" out of the blue unless the attackers are like, crazy nazi sympathizers or something, at which point they'll just attack anyone (as in a case in New York a few years back where two [iranian?] brothers were walking arm-in-arm (because that's okay in their culture for family to do that) and some white power guys attacked one with a baseball bat while shouting homosexual slurs).

but people aren't stupid, and the huge majority of the time the camp-gay will avoid whatever situation just on his own. what Snight sort of touched on, and I think should have gone into a little bit more detail about, is that it really does depend on the personality and physical stature of the guy. if the camp guy's huge and muscular, it doesn't matter how queen-y he is if he's got biceps that are the size of basketballs. very few dudes are gonna pick a fight with him. same with any of the other guys too- if they don't scream "mincing faggot!" then an actual physical attack is probably... not very likely to happen in a normal, not-super-homophobic setting. and of course, any of the ones that can easily pass as straight have very little to fear, as the only way a stranger would know that they were gay is if they're actually making out with another dude in a public place, in which case there'd probably be other people around to intervene and stuff too, and again, the physical stature thing is pretty important. if they look like they could fuck you up just as easily as you could them, then most dudes will probably lay off.

verbal's much grayer though. I'm bi, 6'4'', and nobody knows that I dig dudes too unless I specifically say, so I can't really say that I've experienced any sort of homophobic slurs myself. plus, I mean, they don't really affect me. being a part of the online community, where everyone uses the word "gay" as a pejorative term to be like "This stupid gay-ass game is such a faggot piece of shit!" so such things don't bother me so much (because I know from experience that the gamer doesn't mean "this game is full of cocksucking and assplay!" they mean "this game is stupid and annoying" and there's really very little *actual* homophobia on their part). I know a lot of gay dudes who get really upset about the word faggot and stuff though, so depending on... well pretty much how effeminate the guy is, the more cutting it will be (because in my experience, the more masculine guys don't particularly care because their "manhood" isn't really called into question, unlike the more feminine type of guy. but then maybe I just know a bunch of extremely sensitive effeminate dudes and the three "manly" gay dudes I know just have hides of stone. lawlz, whatever, I mean, you can certainly do whatever you want! just giving you some food for thought is all).

I can't say anything about the workplace and being passed over for promotions, but again, as long as the dude doesn't "flaunt" his sexuality, it's probably not going to matter. depending on how progressive the area is, he might not be the only out gay person at his office (and if he works at a big company, 1 in 10 people are gay statistically so it'd be pretty likely that there are at least one or two others).

and I heartily agree with Snight saying that the campy dude would have it the worst, to the point of being verbally harassed quite viciously. this is especially true if he is the type that wants to flirt with the guys around him, which if there's even one straight guy in the group who's uncomfortable with it, it's pretty likely to blow up in his face. closeted dudes and ones who can usually pass as straight don't exactly just flirt super-heavily with the guys around them (unless it's like, stag night and guy-on-guy flirting is par for the course), so it's generally not even an issue unless one gay guy "takes it too far" (but then, again, that really depends on the straight dude's definition of "too far" and whether or not the gay dude can read the signs of what's what). campy dudes usually try and flirt pretty heavily though, and young ones, ones who can't read body cues, and the ones who get too caught up in *their* idea of the situation can... sometimes plow across the lines of personal boundaries without realizing just how many rules they're violating. I mean, in my own experience, the few campy dudes I've actually met and talked to were also very touchy-feely and sort of... hrmm... "desperate" for male physical contact, and because I *am* bi and I don't send out all the "dude, you're a guy, and I'm a guy, and your physical proximity/male touch of a sexual nature is super gross" body language, they got like... disgustingly clingy to the point that even I was like, bordering on exploding at them myself and being like "look fucker, we just met like, 20 minutes ago, there's no way that you hovering your hands around me is okay." and I mean, that's me as a bi dude, someone who actually isn't repulsed/rejective of male touch in general. a straight guy is likely to get *really* pissed, either at physical touch or continuous flirtation, because what's going through his head is "this fag won't let off of me, god, I don't like dudes, get the fuck away."

or at least, the only confrontations *I've* seen of homosexuality/homophobia involve things like that. unwanted attention and stuff, where the straight dude is honestly sort of justified (to some extent) in his reaction. of course, I've also seen the opposite, where once it becomes known that one guy is gay, the straight dudes all around him start flirting with him and sometimes get up to some pretty wild things, depending on how comfortable they feel with him, so there's that for you, lawlz, it honestly again goes back to the gay dude's personality. most straight guys are generally uncomfortable around the more effeminate gay dudes, and really have a pretty strong aversion to them, but the gay guys who are more masculine or "pass" better are either like, "yeah he's cool, he's gay but he's cool" or... heh, I don't know how to describe it other than "a potential for a little bicurious exploration" (whether that exploration consists of just a little bit of over the top flirting, drunk, over the top fondling, or... like, crazy amounts of "more" depends on the dude).

but that's like, covering ALL possible tangents, lawlz, I can't say which is more likely than any other. homophobia really depends on the level of progressiveness in whatever city you set your dudes in, along with the people the surround themselves with and how "flamboyant" their actions are. I mean, honestly, there are effeminate straight dudes, and really flamboyant straight dudes, for that matter, who face a LOT more ridicule than a lot of masculine gay dudes have, so like I said it really depends on how vehemently a straight guy feels he needs to "reject" the "gay influence" or whatever. plus, heh, "who he hangs out with" because if he's a member of the football team and he's a big burly guy, surrounded by other big burly guys who are his "compadres" and a dude tries to pick a fight, he's going to get the absolute shit beat outta him when he finds out that "the faggot's" friends don't seem to agree with him. and lawlz, same goes for if there's a really fem gay dude who hangs out with a bunch of girls- the straight guy who insults him may find himself suddenly the object of scorn and ridicule from a bunch of girls (which is counter to what he wants, which is to score with them) so, lawlz, yeah, really complex stuff. fun to think about. food for you, for thought!

[Shadowknight12]

but people aren't stupid, and the huge majority of the time the camp-gay will avoid whatever situation just on his own. what Snight sort of touched on, and I think should have gone into a little bit more detail about, is that it really does depend on the personality and physical stature of the guy. if the camp guy's huge and muscular, it doesn't matter how queen-y he is if he's got biceps that are the size of basketballs. very few dudes are gonna pick a fight with him. same with any of the other guys too- if they don't scream "mincing faggot!" then an actual physical attack is probably... not very likely to happen in a normal, not-super-homophobic setting.

Isn't that just very basic common sense? Like, "survival instinct" basic? I mean, really. Nobody will attack anyone if there's a good chance the attacker is going to get their ass handed to them. That's why a lot of muscular people have been attacked by mobs or with weaponry, and not one-on-one. If the campy guy is muscular but he really, really pisses off a redneck, he might get his friends, a bunch of bats, and beat the ever loving shit out of the gay guy. Just as it might happen if, instead of being very gay, he slept with the redneck's sister and broke her heart. Some people are just looking for an excuse to elicit violence on others. This, OF COURSE, depends on the setting. This sort of person is more common in certain areas than others.

heh, I don't know how to describe it other than "a potential for a little bicurious exploration" (whether that exploration consists of just a little bit of over the top flirting, drunk, over the top fondling, or... like, crazy amounts of "more" depends on the dude).

As an aside, this, regardless of gender, is NOT as common as the media would have you believe. Obviously varies a lot depending on the area as well, but in most cases, nubile youngsters of either gender being wildly bicurious is very much the stuff of fantasy. Not saying that it doesn't happen, especially when it's all just verbal (flirting, teasing, etc.) but more physical exploration is, save the times when it's done specifically because of a dare/for money/to impress or shock, far rarer than it appears on the media.

[wanderingaddict]

haha, no, actually, it's much, MUCH more common than people think Snight! well, actually I don't know what your interpretation of media portrayal is, but it's been pretty solidly reported that about 20% of people (in the U.S. at least) have had some sort of bisexual experience at some point in their life. I suppose that if you're looking at it in the media as "50% of all people have a bicurious adventure" then sure, no, not that much, but 20% seems to be the most consistent number, and is certainly a lot higher than the "1 in 10" estimation of gay people and the "nobody actually does that!" of the heteronormative viewpoint.

and the comment about going into the physical stature was because a lot of people tend to forget about the fact that gay dudes can be as intimidating (physically) as any other man, what with the usual stereotype of a gay man being "mincy, wearing women's jeans and a skintight rainbow shirt." and, lawlz, like, yeah, most of the really bad cases of attacks *are* a gang of rednecks/white trash out actively looking for trouble, and what with fags having a reputation for being sissies it makes them a soft target.

that'd be some pretty (understandably) crazy stuff though, and being attacked with weapons is, you know, super scary and super deadly and stuff. but, too, Snight, I was also just emphasizing the point that if a lone, obviously gay guy goes to a bar, but looks intimidating enough/like he could handle himself (or if he AND his boyfriend both look tough enough) then there's simply a far less likely chance that some lone homophobic vigilante is going to try and start something, as opposed to a skinny ballet dude walking in (one who doesn't even have to be gay). and like, it's generally a *lot* more okay for a straight-acting gay guy to be flirtatious with a straight dude than it is for an effeminate one. the mechanism behind this is that "binary rejection"- that is "oh, this guy, he's manly, he's manly like me, I'm manly, it's more okay because obviously he's cool and a dude and nothing will happen, 'cause he's a dude and cool" where he can accept it as okay because it's not demasculating to act this way with this dude, whereas with the more effeminate guy it's much more like "this guy's not "manly," so if he's not "manly" and not "a man" that means that he must be "a woman" amd to flirt with him is *not* manly" so in that case it IS very demasculating.

lawlz that's probably waaay too complex to get into for just a bit of story research though, and it does compete with all the times that more progressive/self-assured (sexuality wise) guys who are just fine with being flirted with when they know (internally) that it's not real/nobody cares and/or the straight dudes who are just happy to get *any* attention so yeah. with regards to your story specifically, Palantean Writer, something to think about is the argument that the one who remains "closted" would almost suffer the most, internally speaking. I mean, I know nothing about him, but it seems like he'd have to answer the question of something like "why can't you be as honest as all these other guys" and so little comments could potentially be a lot more painful for him than any of the others, who'd have had to already face these things head-on.

[Shadowknight12]

I suppose that if you're looking at it in the media as "50% of all people have a bicurious adventure"

That, to me, is more or less what the media spouts. That young people are free-spirited, open-minded, dominated by their hormones and eager to be rebellious and experiment with their same gender because apparently it's taboo or some shit. Whatever, I don't know, I don't care. I don't even want to know if it's true or not. What some stranger does, sexuality-wise, is none of my business.

and the comment about going into the physical stature was because a lot of people tend to forget about the fact that gay dudes can be as intimidating (physically) as any other man, what with the usual stereotype of a gay man being "mincy, wearing women's jeans and a skintight rainbow shirt." and, lawlz, like, yeah, most of the really bad cases of attacks *are* a gang of rednecks/white trash out actively looking for trouble, and what with fags having a reputation for being sissies it makes them a soft target.

Yes, I always wonder how a lot of people seem to forget the sheer number of gay guys who work out (some to the point of vigorexia) or at the very least try to keep a healthy lifestyle. *shrugs* I guess the flamboyant ones draw the most attention.

that'd be some pretty (understandably) crazy stuff though, and being attacked with weapons is, you know, super scary and super deadly and stuff. but, too, Snight, I was also just emphasizing the point that if a lone, obviously gay guy goes to a bar, but looks intimidating enough/like he could handle himself (or if he AND his boyfriend both look tough enough) then there's simply a far less likely chance that some lone homophobic vigilante is going to try and start something,

*shrugs* There are far scarier things than that.

Yes. I know. What *I* was trying to emphasise is that what you have just said is true for absolutely anyone. If a black guy goes to the same bar and looks like can handle himself, he's also not going to get beaten up for his race. If a scantly-clad woman also looks like she could handle herself, she's not going to get dragged into the back alley and raped. I was talking specifically about gay guys, not anyone that might be exposed to violence for what they are.

I want to add that I agree with the rest of your comment wholeheartedly. People should read that and take notes. Just clarifying my position.

[wanderingaddict]

*shrugs* There are far scarier things than that.

well okay sure if you're going to go with that then I'm sure it's scarier to wake up without your arms and legs, or to have blood start oozing from all your pores or to have a big hairy black man named Bubba who's breath smells like old shrimp cuddle up behind you in a dark alley and whisper "Hmm, I like it when they squeal" but relatively being attacked by an armed man/armed group of strangers is far cry more dangerous/deadly than getting in a fistfight with a lone homophobe of equal size and strength.

lawlz, yeah though, it is very true that crazy nazi redneck dudes are as apt to attack anyone as they are a gay dude so

[Shadowknight12]

well okay sure if you're going to go with that then I'm sure it's scarier to wake up without your arms and legs, or to have blood start oozing from all your pores or to have a big hairy black man named Bubba who's breath smells like old shrimp cuddle up behind you in a dark alley and whisper "Hmm, I like it when they squeal" but relatively being attacked by an armed man/armed group of strangers is far cry more dangerous/deadly than getting in a fistfight with a lone homophobe of equal size and strength.

lawlz, yeah though, it is very true that crazy nazi redneck dudes are as apt to attack anyone as they are a gay dude so

I fully agree and I have no further comments to make.

[wanderingaddict]

I fully agree and I have no further comments to make.

I don't have any more comments either.

[wanderingaddict]

woah, hey though, are the four you're talking about the same ones as your four Palantis dudes? heh, if so then I don't really know how applicable anything I said really is, because I mean a made-up society could be... well, anything!

[Palantean Writer]

woah, hey though, are the four you're talking about the same ones as your four Palantis dudes? heh, if so then I don't really know how applicable anything I said really is, because I mean a made-up society could be... well, anything!

Heh heh, yes it is those four!

I'm working out at the moment how Earth-like to make it and how alien to make it, but I've more or less settled on going back about 10 - 20 years in terms of Earthian(?) attitudes to homosexuality.