This Fic Is Not A Mary Sue!

[NightScribe]

This is pretty darn funny. I came across a fic in the HP archive and in the summary, the author insists, in ALL CAPS no less, that the story is not a Mary Sue. I checked out the reviews and the first couple were of the "great so far" and "please update soon" variety. Then a couple of real reviews took the author to task; one outlining in detail why the fic is a Mary Sue. Well, after seeing those, I just had to read it and decide for myself.

OMG! At the end of each chapter, author keeps insisting it's not an MS. And leaves these kind of Batman-esque questions to build suspense, but she gave away the big revelation by the second chapter. One reviewer even said that the "twist" was "the oldest one in the book."

And while we're on the subject of SIs/Mary Sues....is it just me, or can you just feel when a story is an MS, masquerading as a Canon/OC? I've seen OC stories and really felt the characters were a person unto themselves, great jobs. And then there's the ones that make you cringe. I saw another one that induced me to South Park like exclamations, like "St. Peter on a pogo stick! This is a Mary Sue! Complete with a crappy, overused cliché. Yeeeeesh.

[Guest Enchanted Faery]

This is pretty darn funny. I came across a fic in the HP archive and in the summary, the author insists, in ALL CAPS no less, that the story is not a Mary Sue. I checked out the reviews and the first couple were of the "great so far" and "please update soon" variety. Then a couple of real reviews took the author to task; one outlining in detail why the fic is a Mary Sue. Well, after seeing those, I just had to read it and decide for myself.

Okay, this is such a dumb question, but what the heck is a Mary Sue? I don't want to end up writing one!

[Mourningstar]

I'm sure there are many people on this forum who could give you a very expansive and thorough answer, but the Wiki definition is a pretty good one in my opinion.

[Guest TrekQueen]

Parodies and comedies concerning Mary Sues are always funny though.... especially when they meet horrible fates.

[Mourningstar]

I think the best Sue I've ever encountered was when the author wrote the most blatant and poorly founded Sue, and then responded to the less than flattering reviews with "She is not a Sue! The character is based on me, only she's a lot prettier than I am, and she gets together with Lestat after he rescues her, because I think he's hot and mysterious."

Sadly, the culprit's name and the the name of the story have disappeared from my memory, but I will never forget that response. Makes me wonder how many of those authors even know what a Sue is, other than something that is considered to be uncool in a story...

[Guest lightgoddess]

Ok, having something like 'MY CHARACTER IS NOT A MARY SUE' is probably a dea give away that you want to run and hide from that fic. Authors who write things like that know they are going to get horrible flames. lol

I'd be more inclined to read a fic with an author note that said something like 'I'm not sure if my OC is going to be a Mary Sue or not. I haven't written an OC into a fanfiction before, but please tell me if she is. I know that regardless I'll probably get told at least once that she is regardless of how well she is characterized...'

An author proudly proclaiming their character a non-MS is kind of pathetic. I mean, good authors don't have to proclaim to the world their characters are good. People read them and see that they are and then they tell their friends.

I hope this person learns two lessons: One, if you advertize your fic as 'non-MS' then inevitably there will be flames, and probably enough to burn down a house. Two, if you write solely for other people you are selling yourself short.

[NightScribe]

Mourningstar, that's one of the funniest things I've heard! I've read Mary Sues where the author is up front about it, and that's cool. And I've seen a couple, like lightgoddess mentioned, not sure if the character will be or not (a lot of times, I find they're not).

Oh, I probably should have mentioned, this "not a Mary Sue story" is in the HP archive, under the sub-category, uh, Mary Sue. WTH???

[foeofthelance]

Probably got Modded there.

[Squallfan]

As of yet, I've never written an OC in any of my stories, simply for that reason. You could probably write the character as a complete bitch, and still get that mary sue review from someone, just because this is fan fiction. I've read stories with mary sue like characters, but if the story is good, I could really care less.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

In my opinion, there's NO way to NOT write a Sue whether OOC canon character (ex: Tenten in my story) or just a fan character. It happens all the time. People try to stay true to certain character traits of canon characters or tone down their own OCs and they still get a Sue/Stu.

I forgive them because that is the single truth that can not be denied without hypocricy on the person calling Sue. Also, I'm not a perfect author myself and I make mistakes (this is so very grown up for me because when I was younger, I would froth at the mouth when I suspected Sues), so I shouldn't talk.

However, there are painfully glaring ones (depending on who's looking at it) out there that are like annoying and make youwant to claw your eyes out so badly.

I do feel that even if you aren't screaming "S/he's not a Merisu/Garisu!" your character is still a Sue.

$0.02....

[NightScribe]

In my opinion, there's NO way to NOT write a Sue whether OOC canon character (ex: Tenten in my story) or just a fan character.

I've had the feeling that some canon pairing stories are Sues in disguise; it stands to reason. Writer puts themself in the place of the canon character, whether male or female. I tend to find that a lot with slash written by fanbrats where the male characters come off more as women, rather than men. I kinda hate that, actually. But I think the better authors have the ability to write great OCs and keep canon characters fairly canon.

I do feel that even if you aren't screaming "S/he's not a Merisu/Garisu!" your character is still a Sue.

Well, then, Masatar_Torlyl, you may address me from now on as "Royal Emporess MarySue of the OC Universe!" I've used a boatload of OCs, (both male and female, main players and minor) because I'm too lazy to go back to writing original stuff; fanfics are easier (which I admit is pretty lame and ethically questionable). I used to be so proud of my original stuff, back in my callow youth. *sigh* Now I'm just old and taking what I can get! I will add, however, that only one reviewer, of one story, ever brought up MS.

And speaking of taking, I will take your $.02 and put them in my piggy bank! And oooh, they're nice, bright, shiny new pennies!

[NightScribe]

I like writing OCs.  And I've been told that mine are generally believable and interesting.  I hope so; I've now created eight for three different storylines.  The key to OCs is to think of them in your head as real people, to imagine them as seperate from yourself and the canon characters.  Don't create ones that are thinly(very thinly,generally) disguised versions of yourselves.  If you want to put yourself into the story, just do a self-insertion.

nikolatesla, you phrased that so succinctly, no wonder you've gotten compliments on your OCs. And I agree, you have to kind of disassociate yourself from them, which takes some skill, especially since you need to get into their "heads" to understand their motivations, feelings, etc. Tricky task, isn't it? It's nice to meet another author not afraid of writing OCs. Including my WIP, I've come up with five major OFCs and a slew of supporting characters, both male and female. It's funny, the one I like most is a guy, but he's not a major character, just one of those important supporting types.

I was thinking this about my WIP a little earlier; if I were to take it out of the HP fandom, create original characters in place of the canon, alter the era, and drop the little bit of magic involved, 97% of the material would remain intact. Most of all, the OFC (and believe me, I haven't done what she does, and I'd never want to).

[Guest TrekQueen]

I like writing OCs. And I've been told that mine are generally believable and interesting. I hope so; I've now created eight for three different storylines. The key to OCs is to think of them in your head as real people, to imagine them as seperate from yourself and the canon characters. Don't create ones that are thinly(very thinly,generally) disguised versions of yourselves. If you want to put yourself into the story, just do a self-insertion.

very nicely put... that's why I think as a writer it is good for one to be an observer of human interaction and behavior. Throw in a few quirks and interesting tidbits that just makes an OC unique like a true live person.

Usually the mary sues are so one dimensional they don't go any deeper than a small puddle.

[Guest lightgoddess]

very nicely put... that's why I think as a writer it is good for one to be an observer of human interaction and behavior. Throw in a few quirks and interesting tidbits that just makes an OC unique like a true live person.

Usually the mary sues are so one dimensional they don't go any deeper than a small puddle.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!! It's the details that make good OC's stand out from MS's. It's those quirks that we give them that give them the depth required to be 'real' characters. It's the humor or heart aching lonliness, the bravery or intelligence, or the clumsiness that we give them that make our readers identify with them.

Those are the things that I love about original characters. They can, quite literally, be anyone we can dream up. Then, we breathe life into them by giving them a certain stature, eye and hair color, emotions, and (one of my favorites) that little something, an aversion to this or fear of that (or complete fearlesness of anything), that makes them real.

A Mary sue is simply an OC that readers can not identify with, who annoys the piss out of them. A well written OC is exactly the opposite.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

I've had the feeling that some canon pairing stories are Sues in disguise; it stands to reason. Writer puts themself in the place of the canon character, whether male or female. I tend to find that a lot with slash written by fanbrats where the male characters come off more as women, rather than men. I kinda hate that, actually. But I think the better authors have the ability to write great OCs and keep canon characters fairly canon.

Well, then, Masatar_Torlyl, you may address me from now on as "Royal Emporess MarySue of the OC Universe!" I've used a boatload of OCs, (both male and female, main players and minor) because I'm too lazy to go back to writing original stuff; fanfics are easier (which I admit is pretty lame and ethically questionable). I used to be so proud of my original stuff, back in my callow youth. *sigh* Now I'm just old and taking what I can get! I will add, however, that only one reviewer, of one story, ever brought up MS.

And speaking of taking, I will take your $.02 and put them in my piggy bank!    And oooh, they're nice, bright, shiny new pennies!

General "you" no one is particular...

Well... it's not what I'm trying to say and I apologize that I am an incoherrent being if anyone offended or something, but what I am trying to stress is don't sweat bullets over those reviews that say your character is a Sue or a character is OOC.

I mean there are things that will always be Sue-like or OOC when you're writing. Been there, sweated the bullets (lost sleep, got stressed and endlessly rewrote), and I have to say that it NOT worth getting so worked up over for both parties-- yeah tone down the characters where you feel it is necessary due to criticism, but it's still your story.

[NightScribe]

I wasn't offended in the least, Masatar. I knew you were using the plural "you" in your statement and speaking in general terms. I'm sorry if it came across like I was really worried over this issue in regards to my own stuff. As for sweating bullets over reviews, that's not a problem, as I don't really get any. So I have the freedom to write whatever the hell I want. Quite liberating, actually.

[Guest Pink Lace]

Er when I clicked a smiley my whole post disappeared and I can't be bothered to write it again since it was quite long. I actually enjoy some Mary Sue characters when they are well-written and not angsty. Yeah, some people would have you believe that well-written and Mary Sue do not belong in the same sentence but my definition of Mary Sue is simply a character that was created as a wish fullfillment/disguised self-insertion by the author. There's no real reason why a writer can't make a Mary Sue fun. Witness the tonnes of MS fics which have a hell of a lot more reviews than the more serious fics.

[NightScribe]

Pink Lace, I noticed in another post you said you were having smiley problems. Hmmm...that's kind of weird. But come to think of it, I've had a problem or two. Anybody ever select one and then preview your post and find a lot of weird letter combinations after it? Like brpmn? or something like that? I had that a couple times over the last few days.

[Guest TrekQueen]

You took the words right out of my mouth!!! It's the details that make good OC's stand out from MS's. It's those quirks that we give them that give them the depth required to be 'real' characters. It's the humor or heart aching lonliness, the bravery or intelligence, or the clumsiness that we give them that make our readers identify with them.

Those are the things that I love about original characters. They can, quite literally, be anyone we can dream up. Then, we breathe life into them by giving them a certain stature, eye and hair color, emotions, and (one of my favorites) that little something, an aversion to this or fear of that (or complete fearlesness of anything), that makes them real.

A Mary sue is simply an OC that readers can not identify with, who annoys the piss out of them. A well written OC is exactly the opposite.

Exactly. *nod* For example, I have an OC I created for a virtual community fic group that has really grown on me this past week when I've developed her profile, searched for a picture, and wrote my first chapter... she's not ms. happy go lucky I can do anything and such but has a past and weaknesses just like anyone else. she also cant do anything and everything better than everyone else.

Knowing the human psyche and the way we are so unique... how we interact... I find it is hard for some people because they are so stuck in their own personal bubble. they cant see outside their own world that circles and revolves around them at the center. Thats why we see a lot of the mary sues done by the youngin's who have not quite grasped the real world and that there are more important people and things than just themselves. it reflects in their writing with rushed stories and plots one can see through or repeated from some popular movie or book.

do whats unexpected and more tricky... we'll get more respect as writers by challenging... not doing the same-old-same-old.

[NightScribe]

I find it is hard for some people because they are so stuck in their own personal bubble. they cant see outside their own world that circles and revolves around them at the center. Thats why we see a lot of the mary sues done by the youngin's who have not quite grasped the real world and that there are more important people and things than just themselves. it reflects in their writing with rushed stories and plots one can see through or repeated from some popular movie or book.

do whats unexpected and more tricky... we'll get more respect as writers by challenging... not doing the same-old-same-old.

That is spot on! I really think you nailed that, especially the observation regarding the "youngins" (I love that) with their rush to post. My God, I've agonized over getting something just right before posting, sometimes for several weeks. Isn't there some adage about "patience is a virture born of maturity?" Or something like that. But writing is a learning process, and constantly challenging yourself is key. The younger folk will come to realize that, if they're serious about writing.

A Mary sue is simply an OC that readers can not identify with, who annoys the piss out of them. A well written OC is exactly the opposite.

Ah, lightgoddess, you don't mince words with that one. It also happens to be true. And it is the quirks, faults, etc. that make an OC so much more.

With my very first fic, my OC may have come across as a Mary Sue at the beginning; but if you stuck through to the end, you found she wasn't perfect. There was a real bone of contention between her and the canon character and she would stoop to dirty pool to get what she wanted; verbal taunts that escalated into a knock-down, drag-out brawl (I loved that, btw). By the third story, even more flaws were revealed. She wasn't all golden light and perfection, but she wasn't the devil in disguise, either and hopefully, her motivation for doing what she did made sense, even if things didn't work out the way she expected or hoped.

It will be interesting to see what happens with my new fic. Another OC and I hope, hope, hope, that she can be identified with, and doesn't "annoy the piss" out of people. lightgoddess, that's signature material right there!

[Guest TrekQueen]

That is spot on! I really think you nailed that, especially the observation regarding the "youngins" (I love that) with their rush to post. My God, I've agonized over getting something just right before posting, sometimes for several weeks. Isn't there some adage about "patience is a virture born of maturity?" Or something like that. But writing is a learning process, and constantly challenging yourself is key. The younger folk will come to realize that, if they're serious about writing.

Heh thanks! I feel like such an oldie oldster when I use the 'youngins' despite being only 23 but I look at some of these kids when I go out and about during the day... I wonder... wow was I ever that bad???? Even looking back on my old writings I found from high school I really had to do a double-take and said something like "Gawd I sucked at this!" I even found a bit of a mary-sue-ish type story I had written about 6 yrs ago that made me gag. However, there are some great young writers out there who have matured or realized things a bit faster than most of their peers and it is always good to nurture them so that they can grow better.

I think also something that hinders writers, particularly the youngin's with the mary sues, is that they need a more diverse and intense reading selection. Reading constantly has been helpful in letting me see the cliches of writing as well as seeing how to mess with the readers keeping them hooked. But nah... that's too much effort and work I think for some of these people.

As for FFnet, I usually write in the Silmarillion section because it is "too hard and confusing" (as one youngster put it) to read for the kids who only saw the LOTR movies. I took a gander in the LOTR section and just about died with the amount of mary-sues with poor Elrond. The reviews were even worse but I digress. Couldn't believe they never researched the fact that Elrond did have a wife and she is very much still alive... but geez she "left" him for the west so she must not love him anymore. *shudders* like I said, too much effort.