Ongoing Author's Notes for Cleansing The Taint (WoW, M/M)

[Shadowknight12]

It came to my attention recently that overly long author notes and replying to reviews were not allowed. Therefore, I am moving them here.

Link to the story in question: Cleansing The Taint

A review from my favorite author in AFF, wanderingaddict! Thanks for making my day, man. I fully agree with your view on Felwood, and that's precisely why I chose it. I don't know if the entire story will be told in journal form, but a good chunk of it most certainly will. Glad you like Bron, I thought he'd be boring.

And just minutes before I posted this, another one! Thank you too, Ereidivh, I'm very flattered. I only hope the smut is up to standard!

Thank you for taking the time to review, Elspeth!

wanderingaddict: Thank you SO much for that <i>amazing</i> review, man! It was incredible; nobody had ever given me so much feedback! It made me feel awesome all day. Anyway, I tried to do my best to implement the changes you suggested (tenses, for example, are one of my banes), and if you feel like it could be better, then please, don't hesitate to let me know.

Bron is indeed a foil. He's the straight man (no pun intended!) to everyone else's quirks. Daeron changed a bit during the rewrite, and I'm still struggling to capture his personality. All I know for sure is that he's angry and snarky. Varen, on the other hand, hides some surprises. I'm glad you thought it was cool that he's not scared by the corruption. It's something I wanted to do on purpose to show that there's more to him than it appears. What a coincidence you mentioned Bloodvenom Post! I am definitely going to try to capture Felwood's haunting danger, to do justice to the feel of it.

Ahahahah, I laughed at your comments on Aero (and his nickname! I love how you gave them nicknames!), they're so spot-on. As a matter of fact, before I started writing the first chapter, I made a list of words that describe the personalities of the main characters, and then picked one which would be the most iconic for each guy. Aero's was, in fact, "slut." Trust me, I wish I could explain a lot of the stuff behind his behavior, but I don't want to spoil anything. All I'll say is that I'm trying to make him a believable, well-rounded character, so all the sluttiness has to come from somewhere.

As for the Sunchaser boy… I'm absurdly pleased you noticed the homage! (It was your stories that inspired me to give writing a try, after all). I'm glad you like him, he's going to show up again some time in the future.

If anyone has ANYTHING at all to say, please, don't hesitate to post. I will probably be editing this post with more replies to reviews, as I get them.

Thank you for reading!

Edited September 26, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[wanderingaddict]

hee, neat! I didn't know anyone else ever checked the forums. anyways, I wanted to add to my latest review, but didn't feel it was worth taking up another one. I feel I should clarify how I feel about Vaerun- obviously he hasn't had much air time yet, but, also, not nearly so much of his personality, or even who and what he is shows through in his writing, unlike the other three. I mean, he's like a priest I guess, but what does that mean for a race that worships floating windchimes? what has some of his other history been? and then, this probably really is just me, but I always picture draenei as that dumb hypermasculine, super-PUMPED body type (lawlz, and when they run they look like a fat man trying to get to the bathroom XD). is he built like that? and exactly what type of "innocence" does he have? is it the Sunchaser boy's boyish charm, or is it a much more altogether "wholesomeness"?

I dunno, I just can't really get a feel for him. if he's devout or not, his power level, etc. as yet, he really kind of pales in comparison to the other three (not that that's a bad thing, mind. I'm just saying, is all). yeah, just so you know. for future reference, in case you were curious

oh, and yes, I realized I totally forgot to mention that the Alliance accepting BIG BLUE DEMONS into their ranks should be a MAJOR REASON the blood elves left in the first place! haha, LOVE that you're playing Aero with what he'd actually assume! such mad props. mad, mad props.

[wanderingaddict]

argh, what the shit?? half my review got cut off, AGAIN.

anyways, after saying that I love Felwood, I went on to say that I like Daeron the most, in part because he's angry and seems proactive and strong, but also because he seems like he's the most active and the one who's trying the hardest to work towards a true goal, which is the meat and potatoes of a hearty story stew! so right now he has some unfair advantages over the others, but still (plus I like night elves, if you didn't know ). Bron I think I could and still do really, really like (almost the most) but he just hasn't had enough show-time. Aero's definitely the most entertaining though, lawlz, his incessent quips and gangsta attitude are bomb. it's not really the sex that does it for in his chapters (though this latest one with Bron really did make me sit up in my chair and take interest!) but more how indomitable his will is. I like strong characters that are self-assured and do not break at the drop of a hat (unlike most of what you see, you know?).

or something to that effect. I'm not sure, I don't really remember. anyways, I ended it by commenting that of the three, I am not at all attached to Vaerun, and that could be because of my natural aversion towards draenei, (so take what I say with a grain of salt), but also there's so little about *him* that it's hard to know where he fits in and what he feels and stuff. I mean, the three characters I think of when I think of this story are D-man, Bron, and Aero, and then I kind of am like "oooh yeah. and Vaerun."

or something to THAT effect. I don't really remember that part either. you should toss in some "pimp" and "baller" remarks around Aero's name, oh! I also remember commenting that I love his quips and the scathing, over the top way he looks down on everybody. but mostly, it was those lines about Vaerun. just to let you know how he's come across- to me- so far.

[Shadowknight12]

hee, neat! I didn't know anyone else ever checked the forums.

Yeah, no kidding! This place is like a ghost town. Email notifications ftw, right?

anyways, I wanted to add to my latest review, but didn't feel it was worth taking up another one. I feel I should clarify how I feel about Vaerun- obviously he hasn't had much air time yet, but, also, not nearly so much of his personality, or even who and what he is shows through in his writing, unlike the other three. I mean, he's like a priest I guess, but what does that mean for a race that worships floating windchimes? what has some of his other history been? and then, this probably really is just me, but I always picture draenei as that dumb hypermasculine, super-PUMPED body type (lawlz, and when they run they look like a fat man trying to get to the bathroom XD). is he built like that? and exactly what type of "innocence" does he have? is it the Sunchaser boy's boyish charm, or is it a much more altogether "wholesomeness"?

Hmmmm, yes, I do see where you're coming from. I am actually struggling with Varen, since he's a wide-eyed, peaceful, idealistic guy who sort of takes life as it comes. That means he's not bitchy like Aero or angry like Daeron. But Bron is also fairly circumspect and his personality DID show through, so I might have to try harder to show who he really is. And since nobody's been actually paying attention to his body (except Aero, but he's only had a glance), his body type hasn't been described. Also, LMFAO at the "floating windchimes" bit. Totally stealing that for Aero. So yeah, I should definitely try to flesh out Varen a little more. LOL, that such a hilarious analogy. Varen himself is actually "small for his kind" which means that he's still muscular (I'm going to assume that massive muscular hypertrophy is a racial trait for draenei males) but actually closer to what a normal tauren or buff night elf would be like. His type of innocence is actually something I want to explore. There's going to be a sort of dichotomy between "childlike naïveté" and "ridiculous capacity for forgiveness because he doesn't understand evil" that later on will be... oh, I don't want to spoil it. Let's just say that there's HEAVY character development in the menu for him.

I dunno, I just can't really get a feel for him. if he's devout or not, his power level, etc. as yet, he really kind of pales in comparison to the other three (not that that's a bad thing, mind. I'm just saying, is all). yeah, just so you know. for future reference, in case you were curious

See? THAT is *exactly* the kind of feedback I love getting. Someone telling me "Hey, dude, I think that X, Y and Z could use some improvement." So thank you very much!

oh, and yes, I realized I totally forgot to mention that the Alliance accepting BIG BLUE DEMONS into their ranks should be a MAJOR REASON the blood elves left in the first place! haha, LOVE that you're playing Aero with what he'd actually assume! such mad props. mad, mad props.

Hee! Thanks again! I'm actually surprised I don't see any blood elves (or Horde members, for that matter) in fics going "Holy shit! Blue Eredar are a part of the Alliance now!" that often. Since, you know, only the Alliance races themselves would know the whole story behind it. But Aero doesn't care what Varen is, only that he's hot. We'll see a more egregious version of this way of thinking sometime soon.

argh, what the shit?? half my review got cut off, AGAIN.

Awww, man. That must SUCK. My condolences.

I'll respond to your review first:

Aero is definitely not one to waste an opportunity. He hadn't gotten any in over a day and he wasn't going to waste the opportunity to grab the bull by the horns, as you so adequately put it. Thank you for the compliments! This chapter is a pivotal one, since it sets in motion a cascade of events that will end up cementing the group's cohesion.

Ohohoh, loved that you're thinking about who's going to get who! I myself only know for sure ONE of the couples. And there's still two more main characters to introduce! But, just for fun:

Aero/Daeron would be very angry sex with D/s and abuse undertones. It'd be a rough grudgefuck. Bron/Daeron would be gentle, sweet lovemaking with both of them taking their time to really savour the experience. Varen/Daeron would be awkward, inexperienced, sometimes rushed, sometimes slow, but ultimately VERY intimate and sweet; with both of them having absolutely nothing in their minds but each other. Daeron's catharsis would likely not come FROM sex, but would lead TO sex. You'll see what I mean when it finally happens.

As an aside, I take seriously the whole "Mages need a high Intellect to be good" thing. I see mages as very logical and clever. Airheads do not make it to mages or warlocks. If someone is an arcanist (especially an accomplished one), they are smarter than your Average Joe. They might not be very wise (that's Spirit to me), but they know how to think logically. This means that Aero, shameless slut that he is, is actually a very smart person who is really good at appearing to be a sex-crazed airhead (you haven't been the only one to underestimate him! ). Seizing opportunities is something that practically makes him who he is. You'll see a good example of this when I get to his participation in the three wars and how he acted during the Scourge's invasion of Quel'Thalas.

anyways, after saying that I love Felwood, I went on to say that I like Daeron the most, in part because he's angry and seems proactive and strong, but also because he seems like he's the most active and the one who's trying the hardest to work towards a true goal, which is the meat and potatoes of a hearty story stew! so right now he has some unfair advantages over the others, but still (plus I like night elves, if you didn't know ). Bron I think I could and still do really, really like (almost the most) but he just hasn't had enough show-time. Aero's definitely the most entertaining though, lawlz, his incessent quips and gangsta attitude are bomb. it's not really the sex that does it for in his chapters (though this latest one with Bron really did make me sit up in my chair and take interest!) but more how indomitable his will is. I like strong characters that are self-assured and do not break at the drop of a hat (unlike most of what you see, you know?).

Oh yeah, Daeron has this weird way of thinking where he doesn't really believe he'll succeed, but he'll keep trying because he feels it's his duty as a druid. Bron is actually the brains behind the whole operation, but I haven't had a chance to illustrate this. Heheheh, glad you find Aero entertaining. He's very fun to write. He'd be all "wazzup bitches!" if it didn't shatter Willing Suspension of Disbelief. In his encounter with the orcs, for example, he's totally walking to his inn with one in each arm like saying "Look at what I got! Aw yeah."

Also, it's GREAT to hear that you liked the smut in that chapter. I was beginning to wonder if I was awful at writing sex scenes. And yes, I completely get what you mean. I should warn you that he's going to experience some character development too (pretty much everyone will), so I hope I won't disappoint you with that.

or something to that effect. I'm not sure, I don't really remember. anyways, I ended it by commenting that of the three, I am not at all attached to Vaerun, and that could be because of my natural aversion towards draenei, (so take what I say with a grain of salt), but also there's so little about *him* that it's hard to know where he fits in and what he feels and stuff. I mean, the three characters I think of when I think of this story are D-man, Bron, and Aero, and then I kind of am like "oooh yeah. and Vaerun."

Oh, so he's the story's Zoidberg?

Well, I'm ecstatic you told me that, actually. I'll work extra hard to flesh him out and make him a realistic character (and use your liking of him as a barometer! ). I was planning to give Daeron and Aero precedence, but it seems I misjudged the "spotlight balance."

or something to THAT effect. I don't really remember that part either. you should toss in some "pimp" and "baller" remarks around Aero's name, oh! I also remember commenting that I love his quips and the scathing, over the top way he looks down on everybody. but mostly, it was those lines about Vaerun. just to let you know how he's come across- to me- so far.

LOL! Remarks around Aero's name? Like what? "Pimpmastah Aer-o?"

Hahahah! Aero's personality was born from a blend of a typical blood elf's disdain (remember the Blood Elf Engineer from The Frozen Throne? He said something like "An elf would've thought of something better" and it totally stuck with me) and being a mage in an arcane-centric society. There's also some family issues that will be deeper explored in the future (there's an "Incest" tag in the summary, after all...) and a certain underlying nihilism mixed with joie de vivre. Yeah, he's weird.

Oh, and THANK YOU for writing all of this! It's really keeping me inspired to write, dissolving writer's block, providing me with guidance when I don't know where to go with character development, etc.; and I really can't even begin to tell you how much I appreciate your reviews and posts.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[Shadowknight12]

This keeps getting better and better! Oh, how I feel sorry for Bron, though... And wow, you update like crazy! This story will be over far too soon at this rate!

Hahah, thanks, Elspeth! Poor Bron had the equivalent experience of waking up next to the wrong person after a night of heavy drinking, only without the aforementioned drinking to actually give him an excuse for his actions. Well, you're not the first to say that, so I'll try to slow down on the updates...

Note to self: When you write the big-ass Author's Note at the end of the story, remember to explain that Varen and Sha'ira suffered the Westermarck Effect, whereas Aeranil and [X] did not.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[Shadowknight12]

What?! No, he can't do that... awwwww *sadface*

Yes, yes he can! And he will... sort of.

I love the solution! Ingenious, even though it still upset the poor boy...

I'm just glad he didn't really have to go through with it.

Thank you! This has been an establishing character moment for Varen (DUN DUN DUN!), brought to you by the letter V.

hahaha, clever trick on Varen's part. clever, but it doesn't absolve him. come on, tantamount to rape? pfft, please. you want his services, that is his price. you're CHOOSING to accept that price. liars and fakers, the lot of you.

well, maybe not Daeren, what with the dark implications about his past and all. and his strength in just saying no. but now Bron and Varen are in the ultra negative -100% reptuation meter. I have checked the "at war with" box. Aero, I hope you burninate them all.

p.s. maybe not Daeren. yeah, not him. but Bron and Varen. polly+pyroblast their asses pls.

Hahahah, you took Aero's side! That's great! Now I have a reader on each side!

Now seriously, I'm so glad I was able to evoke this reaction. It means I succeeded at not making either side more "in the tight" than the other.

I'm not sure whether I should be glad that you're pissed at Bron and Varen or not. I can assure you that they will, one way or another, be forced to face the consequences of their actions. But, of course, the same goes for Daeron and Aeranil.

Pyroblasting might ensue.

Oooooh! Delicious chapter followed by quite an interesting tweak! Can't wait for more! *looks around for something to clean up the drool*

Heheheheheh. That is an awesome review. Thank you!

Edited October 3, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[wanderingaddict]

I should probably add some more to my review!

so yeah. that interlude eh? how 'bout that? waaaaas it a GHOSTWOLF?? haha, what throughs it off is the hands and feet comment. and the shield. at first I thought it was going to be a worgen even! but then I remembered that worgen can't be shaman so I was all like hmm. I've been wondering what the new shaman would be too. I figured orc, as that's the most typical archetype and really kinda what's missing from this story so far, but a troll wouldn't be out of place, and hey you could pull sometihng outta thin air and do a goblin or a dwarf on me so I really have no clue! oh, and a tauren I suppose, but you already have a tauren so it'd be all redundant and stuff. anywho.

my comments on the deterioration were just suggestions to make a lttle of what you're getting at more clear, perhaps, since you're interested in that and wanted feedback. I personally never assume the writer is trying to do anything at all so I never really look for that unless it's with clear examples in the writing itself. those were just some examples that would catch me, personally, so make of that what you will! in terms of the action, it felt... hmm, kind of all over the place. what I think a lot of writers fail to do (particularly ones writing spellcasters) is forget that melee ALWAYS trumps mages in close combat. I can't tell you how often I've read some otherwise alright book just fall apart when it comes to a battle, where- for some reason- the footmen stand around with their swords drawn, waiting for a spellcaster to chant a 20-30 second spell instead of just throwing their sword at the dude and interrupting/slowing it altogether.

specifically, they fail to consider that ALL members of hte battle have minds focused on self-preservation. in your case specifically, you have three casters versus a bunch of casters and a handful of melee. caster-versus-caster is the easiest to write, honestly, becuase you can just do whatever the fuck you want, but in caster versus melee, the charging melee must be kept away from the body in some way, shape, or form. this means, however, that the caster cannot cast when they're kiting.

so in your case, the fight kind of stutters, especially with Daeren. what he does during the battle is constantly dodge, right? at the same time he casts? this seems counter to his primary preference (that being his kitty form) for one, and for two his kitty would be much better for melee in the first place. it's the same with Varen- you write him as someone would play in the literal games, that is, aggroing a bunch of mobs and then just standing there while he's hit with a mace over and over. heh, there's kind of a break in reality, you know? a much more appropriate way might be to emphasize either Daeron or Varen handling holding back the melee from one or the other (or both, of course). Daeren does have entangling roots and kitty stuns, and it seems like Varen has zero shadow spells, but at least would have desperate prayer/shields/renews, etc, so he could be the melee tank while Daeren moonfires all the casters or something. anyways, my point is that even if you want to emphasize them not being able to work as a team or something, they still need to act like the mobs charging them are equally intelligent, capable creatures. a priest constantly healing himself when you stab him in the stomach is a nuiscance, but once you smack him in the head with a mace that stops, ya know? or, going back to the not working as a team, they have to be able to work to protect themselves (if that means just running away, LoSing the casters, etc) then so be it. it just gets wonky when a writer says something like "6 men ran up with swords and stabbed at the mage who dodged all of them and then tossed an ice bolt that totally killed them all" when really, it's pretty hard to dodge six swords coming from at LEAST a half-circle direction.

so yeah. just commenting on that. if you want to hear it. if not, sera sera

[Shadowknight12]

It's Review Replying Time! *insert horribly inappropriate joke here*

Really good chapter, very well portrayed and sympathetically written. Excellent work, I'm really enjoying the story, please continue:)

Thank you, Dierdre! I'm glad you liked it, it was a tough chapter to write.

wanderingaddict:

Hah! That was definitely a thorough review. I'm a-burstin' with ideas! I'll definitely keep your suggestions in mind for future chapters. They're all extremely useful and pretty much exactly what I was looking for. So thanks!

The interlude: LOL! No, it's not a ghostwolf! Hmmmmmmmmm. I thought it would be SO obvious, with all the hints I thought I had dropped. I'll have to see if the next Interludes help flesh out Garos. It's also pretty difficult to believably explain to the reader stuff that's happening in two different timelines without sounding heavy-handed. I mean, I always thought that huge "PRESENT TIME" and "FOUR YEARS AGO" signs at the beginning of every chapter would be kind of lame. Ah well. We'll see when the next interlude comes along if I manage to make it clearer. As an aside, no, Garos is not a shaman. Keep guessing.

Oh, and the shaman is going to be an orc. Cliché, I know, but the shaman from the old WCIII game (big body unlike most casters, wolf fur, steel claws) was dead sexy.

Combat: Yikes! I guess it shows that it was the first combat scene I've ever written. And the worst part is that I wholeheartedly agree with you AND I have actually complained about authors doing exactly that! This is a rather humbling experience, to be sure, thinking "Oh, I'm so much smarter than that! I'll never make such blatant mistakes!" and then... "Oh, shit! What the fuck did I just do!" A part of me wants to quietly rewrite the whole thing and then pretend this embarrassment never existed in the first place.

My main problem is that I need to emphasize a connection between Daeron and moonlight (it's important for the plot!) and I thought that having him cast moonfire and starfire would be a good way to achieve that. Unimaginative, I know! I realize that now (note to self: trade your metaphorical hacksaw for a scalpel and learn some subtlety!). So instead I'll just do what I wanted him to do in the first place, which is get into kitty form and shred those motherfuckers.

Varen, on the other hand, actually produced the effect I wanted, but in a bad way. I wanted him to be inexperienced and pretty useless in combat, knowing only how to cast heals, buffs and shields (as an aside, he does have shadow spells, he's cast Mind Control and Silence on Aero, remember? He's just unaware he has them), and getting pretty messed up as a result. The only "real" battle Varen's ever been is when he helped his people take over the Exodar. And even there, he was relegated to the back on healing duties. The idea is that he's the IC equivalent of a first-time player who just picked a race/class combo because it sounded cool and he has no idea whatsoever of what the hell he's supposed to be doing. I am going to include some mental comments on Aero's behalf about his lack of proper combat behavior.

Anyway, in case you're wondering, I'll rewrite that combat scene to make it at least tolerable. So by the time the next update comes along, it'll be done.

Thanks again for your detailed reviews! They're really more than one could ask for.

[wanderingaddict]

just 'cause it's cliche hardly means it's bad. cliches are popular for a reason. personally I heart subtle twists to them far, far more than people just being like mwah, night elf druid, so cliche, my druid's a fucking dwarf or something equally retarded. hah!

it's hardly anything bad to rewrite. I often go back and just rewrite entire chapters after I've posted them. most of the time I consider the first post to be nothing more than a first draft, and sometimes it's only after reading it on the AFF page that I actually realize where it could use work. a connection between Daeron and moonlight could be made almost more obvious if you just change the mechanic. all druids cast moonfire-crap spells right? it's hardly anything different for him to use them. if you have his fur glitter when he hits a patch of moonlight, or he can (more or less) teleport/bounce around from patch to patch or something different, etc, then the connection is a LOT more clear, you know? because it's different enough to take note of. obviously nothing game-breaking, but it should be easy enough to combine his kitty form with some good mooney abilities/tricks or something.

hah, I got that Varen is unaware of the shadow-side of being a priest. I meant more that he doesn't have conscious access to shadow-CC so one could hardly expect him to fear the mobs off him. none of that incompetence came through though, if that's what you were trying to get at there. Aero seems super capable, but for the most part it's just kind of random, because even he is just flat-tackled by the felpuppy, when something like being suddenly spell-locked and then tackled, or getting his shield eaten by one while the other attacks is more appropriate, you know? whereas Varen and Daeron just kind attack shit and get attacked randomly, and there's no real clear skill difference. haha, I'm probably just expounding on something you already know though, so I'll shut up. oh and the scene itself is passing tolerable, I mean, not awful or unreadable. my comments were just things to think about if you want to make it better, that's all.

[Shadowknight12]

LMFAO! A dwarven druid! That's hilarious and disturbing at the same time.

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence! I realize it could be much worse, but I tend to go hard on myself when it comes to writing. I actually rewrite every chapter a few times before posting it, making minor edits here and there, and then I do it again another handful of times after I've posted it.

LOVED the fur-glitter suggestion. Definitely using that and other stuff in the same vein. And the teleport bit gave me an idea for later, too.

As for the other thing... well, I tried my best. I rewrote the entire combat scene and tried to reflect their skill differences better without giving away too much information or breaking Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Or sounding so random! I will try to improve with my next battle scenes (and I can only get better with practice, right?), so that next time it flows much better. Once the story shifts from journal format to omniscient third person, it should be easier to write this kind of stuff.

Thanks again for the help!

[Ereidivh]

Wow!

I've been away, and unable to read the story, but I just finished catching up on my reading (last time I left off around Aeranil's first entry). It was, if I may say, fantastic! I'm absolutely captivated by this new, dramatic juncture in the narrative, and can't wait for the next chapter!

The writing quality is, I think, superb. I admire your broad vocabulary, but feel like in some places you're using it in a way that distracts from the story, rather than giving it more realism. For example, in that last chapter; would Daeron really write like that? "He had to be careful when turning around, lest he fall to the ground." I feel like it's just bogging down the story.

I love the new Dragon story-line that's emerging. Have I been missing the hints to it along the way, or is just entirely new? Whichever, I think that it adds a definitely needed lightness to the last few chapters, and also gave the chance for the first sex scenes not involving Aeranil! Yay! I'll admit that, after having read only Varen's view of it, I thought that Daeron might have been visiting him in his sleep, and then had a horrified moment when I thought it might have been Aeranil. Poor Varen though, everything seems to happen to him.

I'm sorry that this is turning into a bit of an undirected rant; I'll wrap it up.

Can't wait for the next chapter, excited to see how Daeron and Varen work things out, if they'll find a Shaman, if the Aeranil situation will improve, how many more of Elune's body parts Daeron can exclaim with, etc. etc.

Props,

Ereidivh

[Shadowknight12]

More reviews! You guys ROCK.

The foreshadowing chapter leaves me hungry for more updates and Aer's latest entry actually almost makes me pity him!

You're an amazing writer, keep it up

Excellent! That's an awesome reaction to get from a reader, when a previously disliked character (almost) gets pitied. Thanks for the feedback, Elspeth!

pfft, the sun-god was Aero. jerkin' him off in his sleep![/color]]

Bwahahahah! That surely would've been an interesting turn of events, right?

Wow!

I've been away, and unable to read the story, but I just finished catching up on my reading (last time I left off around Aeranil's first entry). It was, if I may say, fantastic! I'm absolutely captivated by this new, dramatic juncture in the narrative, and can't wait for the next chapter!

The writing quality is, I think, superb. I admire your broad vocabulary, but feel like in some places you're using it in a way that distracts from the story, rather than giving it more realism. For example, in that last chapter; would Daeron really write like that? "He had to be careful when turning around, lest he fall to the ground." I feel like it's just bogging down the story.

I love the new Dragon story-line that's emerging. Have I been missing the hints to it along the way, or is just entirely new? Whichever, I think that it adds a definitely needed lightness to the last few chapters, and also gave the chance for the first sex scenes not involving Aeranil! Yay! I'll admit that, after having read only Varen's view of it, I thought that Daeron might have been visiting him in his sleep, and then had a horrified moment when I thought it might have been Aeranil. Poor Varen though, everything seems to happen to him.

I'm sorry that this is turning into a bit of an undirected rant; I'll wrap it up.

Can't wait for the next chapter, excited to see how Daeron and Varen work things out, if they'll find a Shaman, if the Aeranil situation will improve, how many more of Elune's body parts Daeron can exclaim with, etc. etc.

Props,

Ereidivh

Hey, it's you! Thanks for the feedback, you really touched on points I had been concerned about. It's hard to keep all the characters separate, with their own distinct voices. After a while, they all begin to blur into the same narrative. I completely agree with what you say, and I have to say I wasn't wholly satisfied with the chapter when I posted it. I did a rewrite just now, trying to go back to the old Daeron.

Well, I'm excited about the Dragon storyline too. There has been only one hint thus far, but it's very subtle. I am aiming for a reread reward with this story, where you go back to previous chapters and go "OMG it was RIGHT there in front of me all along!" when you discover a plot twist. I don't know if I'll be able to pull it off, but I hope for the best.

I think we'll finally start to see some non-Aeranil sex from now on. It might take a while, but it'll happen.

LOL. Well, Varen is getting the spotlight now. It's juuuuust about to shift to someone else.

Anyway, thanks again, I honestly wasn't expecting readers to post such awesome reviews. They really give me an extra boost to work hard on improving my writing quality.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[Shadowknight12]

I love your story =) I really like the character interactions with one another, their weaknesses and just overall their personalities. The chapters are also very reasonably designed, quick and informative along with making it easy to take breaks in-between if one has to.

Keep up the great work =D

Hey thanks, Serronas! Glad to hear you like the characters and the formatting, I try hard on both.

Hai, i don't usually review alot of things, its hard for me to covey my thoughts easily in a mere comment; i figured you could use the feedback though since you've been dying for some.

you sir have a brilliant piece of fiction here, Ive read through many journal style fanfictions, none are done quite as well as this, most are just repetitive and have the same chapter from a different perspective; and you still manage to bridge things together nicely so that the story makes sense.

Im loving the story so far

i must say Im torn between which character i like the most, Aeranil stands out there for obvious reasons, who doesn't love slutty blood elves ne? XD but im also leaning toward Daeron, hes so dramatic and comical. Im interested to know where this is going, especially with Varen, its pretty obvious what happened to Aeranil (woo thats hard to spell, i wanna type Erandil or Aerandir not both at the same time lol. Fawnheart reference there XP) im sensing he wasn't always like this, but what is strange to me is, wouldn't you shy away from such relations if something terrible like that happened to you? idk that's just me. its amazing the rate at which you update hope to see more.

PS: i sincerely hope you've read Fawnheart's stuff, shes amazing

im sorry about the 3 reviews now, for some reason it wouldnt show all of it in one.

keep up the fantastic work

~Onissa-Chan~

Yes! I'm always dying for feedback. What cock is to Aeranil, feedback is to me.

Thank you! I absolutely loathe it when a journal fiction repeats the same thing over and over again. It's annoying. And as a writer, it's ultimately a waste of your time, unless the story REALLY improves as a consequence.

Hah, looks like everybody loves Daeron and Aeranil. Nobody likes the quiet ones, it seems! Well, I don't want to give away too much about Aeranil's past (he'll get his own Very Special Interlude at some point, which will shed some light on his past), but let me just quote Wikipedia for a second here: "Conversely, some rape survivors become hyper-sexual or promiscuous following sexual attacks, sometimes as a way to reassert a measure of control over their sexual relations." Furthermore, I'm going to explore the cycle of abused-turned-abuser with Aeranil, something which should become more evident in his next entry.

Fawnheart is, actually, first on my "To read" list. When I have some free time, I'm going to start reading up on her works. She seems like a talented and prolific writer!

Don't worry about the reviews, I'm exceedingly grateful that you took the time to tell me your thoughts about my story.

So Aer and Brom slept together again? =o Dun dun dun!

Hmmmmm, should I spoil it or not?

Edited October 12, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[Shadowknight12]

Elspeth:

Wow, Chapter 30 made me cry. Very well written; can't wait to see how he plays into the story (does he?). All the other chapters I haven't commented on have been great too; I'm trying not to spam your comments section, hehe!

Thank you for that! You've no idea how much I actually grinned upon reading that. It was exactly the reaction I was aiming for! Rest assured, Therenil does play into the story. He comes after Thrum, in fact. Just don't expect any happy fun stuff with him. His life SUCKS.

Also, I don't think reviewing when a new chapter comes out is against the rules, even if you're the only one doing so. I honestly can't tell you how much I appreciate reviews or even comments on this thread. Hits are nice and good, but you can't tell with that if people really like the story or if it just has a catchy title/summary, and then the content itself is worthless crap.

Hot chapter! Eagerly awaiting the next... can I get one of the elements to come help me cool off? Maybe Storm? hehe...

Hahahah, sure, why not! If more elements were like that, I'm sure shamanism would become a popular practice!

As an aside, I'm not at all satisfied with the chapter. It lacked detail in a lot of places, and the actual sex scene was rushed because I just wanted to get it fucking DONE, so I can move on with the story. I normally like to reread and correct a chapter a hundred times before posting it, but for this particular story, I decided that I was going to get it finished no matter what, and that I wasn't going to obsess over a given chapter. It just makes matters worse.

[Ereidivh]

Shadowknight,

I just wanted to say that I really loved this lastinterlude: I thought that it was done really interestingly, what with the wholedifferent perspective on familiar events thing. One thing that kind of broke itup for me was the Call to Arms lyrics interspersed. I thought it was a reallyneat idea, but that it would work better, maybe, if the interjections were lessfrequent, and maybe if what the words actually meant lined up more with thestory.

So that you have a better idea of what the song actuallymeans (if you’ve done your research, skip this and this suggestion), I herepresent an approximate translation, courtesy of about 3 different onlinetranslators I worked through.

Gloria!

Honorifice!

Praelium Facio!

Animus!

Gradior quo prodo!

In excelsis precedo!

Adversa Incurro!

Bellator Decerte!

INVADORIA!

Desideratus Fatum

Desideratus Bellum.

Glory! Honor! Join the battle! Courage! Act with [pride]!Exceed all elevations! Contest of warriors! Enemies are attacking! INVADE!Welcome to Fate. Welcome to War.

A less literal, but more prosaic translation might run morelike… Glory! Honor! Join the Battle! Have the Courage to live with pride.Exceed all limits in this contest of warriors: the enemies are attacking!INVADE! Welcome to Fate; Welcome to the War.

My suggestions for the lyrics are thus: Put Gloria quoProdo! Where “Gloria Quo!” is now. Where Prodo is now, don’t put anything. Do the same with In Excelsis andPrecedo, and then again with Bellator and Decerte. Put “Adversa Incurro” whereDecerte is now, and then Invadoria where Adversa is. Put Desideratus Fatumwhere Invadoria is now, and leave Desideratus Bellum where it is. I feel like the words in those placeswould much better reflect what is going on in the story.

Now that that’s done with, I have a few more questions,because I’m confused. This far,you have been sticking very closely to WoW as it appears to us in the game(adding in all your wonderful storylines of course), but here Therenil isintroduced as a High Elf. I’m presumingthat that’s a precursor to an unquenched, if not unrequited love between the–enil’s, as it were, with Aera having that as a means of relating to Ther. It was only slightly confusing to me,and I got over it, I was just wondering if you intend to cleave as closely tothe experienceable (that is not a word, but English lacks one I know of forit), aspects of the game (gay sex patch 4.04 Pl0x).

Next thing that I was curious about, is that I had beenreading the whole story so far with the impression that the four (now five,soon to be six) companions had perished in the attack on the Verdant Glade. Iunderstand now that that may not be the case, and I know that you purposelyleft the description of the post-attack Glade open to interpretation so as notto reveal if the characters were alive or not, but I feel that having thisInterlude now removes that “Take this as you will” aspect of the journalentries. Of course, if you’vealready planned a long series of chapters in which all six of them survive,YAY! I hate it when main characters die. Not really, but it makes me sad. Alternatively, is this an alternatereality, as it were, an expostulation on the hypothetical case of them beingpresent at the Wrathgate, which they may or may not ever have been? Now I’mconfusing myself. I’ll stop, because this paragraph needs to end.

Is Ceristrasz Aeranil’s lover? I thought he had claimedVaren. Guess I’ll find out.

Anyways, sorry for the weird, ranting-ish nature of this. Imainly wrote it to distract myself from studying for my physics test, which Iam going to fail anyways. Oh well.

Ereidivh

[Shadowknight12]

Shadowknight,

I just wanted to say that I really loved this lastinterlude: I thought that it was done really interestingly, what with the wholedifferent perspective on familiar events thing. One thing that kind of broke itup for me was the Call to Arms lyrics interspersed. I thought it was a reallyneat idea, but that it would work better, maybe, if the interjections were lessfrequent, and maybe if what the words actually meant lined up more with thestory.

Thanks! I actually kind of thought the same thing when I saw the final result, that it was too "broken up" into small sections, and it would make the lyrics disruptive.

So that you have a better idea of what the song actuallymeans (if you've done your research, skip this and this suggestion), I herepresent an approximate translation, courtesy of about 3 different onlinetranslators I worked through.

Gloria!

Honorifice!

Praelium Facio!

Animus!

Gradior quo prodo!

In excelsis precedo!

Adversa Incurro!

Bellator Decerte!

INVADORIA!

Desideratus Fatum

Desideratus Bellum.

Glory! Honor! Join the battle! Courage! Act with [pride]!Exceed all elevations! Contest of warriors! Enemies are attacking! INVADE!Welcome to Fate. Welcome to War.

A less literal, but more prosaic translation might run morelike… Glory! Honor! Join the Battle! Have the Courage to live with pride.Exceed all limits in this contest of warriors: the enemies are attacking!INVADE! Welcome to Fate; Welcome to the War.

My suggestions for the lyrics are thus: Put Gloria quoProdo! Where "Gloria Quo!" is now. Where Prodo is now, don't put anything. Do the same with In Excelsis andPrecedo, and then again with Bellator and Decerte. Put "Adversa Incurro" whereDecerte is now, and then Invadoria where Adversa is. Put Desideratus Fatumwhere Invadoria is now, and leave Desideratus Bellum where it is. I feel like the words in those placeswould much better reflect what is going on in the story.

Well, I got the lyrics (and their meaning) from this WoWwiki article and this youtube video.

Firstly, I completely agree with you. I feel kind of stupid that I didn't think of grouping two sets of lyrics together the way you suggested, it really reduces the clutter the way you put it. And actually, I thought about the meaning of them as I placed them, and I noticed that in some places it didn't quite fit.

And lastly, thanks, I like the way it looks now. Less clutter, more meaning.

Now that that's done with, I have a few more questions,because I'm confused. This far,you have been sticking very closely to WoW as it appears to us in the game(adding in all your wonderful storylines of course), but here Therenil isintroduced as a High Elf. I'm presumingthat that's a precursor to an unquenched, if not unrequited love between the–enil's, as it were, with Aera having that as a means of relating to Ther. It was only slightly confusing to me,and I got over it, I was just wondering if you intend to cleave as closely tothe experienceable (that is not a word, but English lacks one I know of forit), aspects of the game (gay sex patch 4.04 Pl0x).

Ahhh, I was wondering if anyone would catch that. I can't really say much without spoiling, but if you look at the stuff Therenil says in the Wrathgate Interlude (recognising Putress immediately, saying Sylvanas isn't the woman they used to know) you can actually guess what his "race" would be in WoW. However, he considers himself a High Elf (and not a Blood Elf!), and that's what I'll be using to describe him.

Next thing that I was curious about, is that I had beenreading the whole story so far with the impression that the four (now five,soon to be six) companions had perished in the attack on the Verdant Glade. Iunderstand now that that may not be the case, and I know that you purposelyleft the description of the post-attack Glade open to interpretation so as notto reveal if the characters were alive or not, but I feel that having thisInterlude now removes that "Take this as you will" aspect of the journalentries. Of course, if you'vealready planned a long series of chapters in which all six of them survive,YAY! I hate it when main characters die. Not really, but it makes me sad. Alternatively, is this an alternatereality, as it were, an expostulation on the hypothetical case of them beingpresent at the Wrathgate, which they may or may not ever have been? Now I'mconfusing myself. I'll stop, because this paragraph needs to end.

Well, I just want to point out that technically, they can still go to Northrend, come back and get killed.

Chronologically, the story begins shortly after the Cataclysm, with the destruction of the Verdant Glade. The journals are actually somewhere in mid-Burning Crusade right now (which would be 4 years before Cata). When we're done with the journals, the story will change writing style to reflect that we're finally moving forward. Think of these phase as a looooooooooooong introduction to the actual plot.

Is Ceristrasz Aeranil's lover? I thought he had claimedVaren. Guess I'll find out.

Anyways, sorry for the weird, ranting-ish nature of this. Imainly wrote it to distract myself from studying for my physics test, which Iam going to fail anyways. Oh well.

Ereidivh

Awww. Well, here's to hoping you'll do well. Thanks again for this awesome post!

[wanderingaddict]

yo, sup holmes. long time no see eh? heh, sorry, but I usually don't feel comfortable leaving empty praise, but don't like to comment if I can't see where the author's going and/or trying to do. I was thrown off at first by the interludes, but now I think I want to sort of... hmm, maybe just chime in about a couple things!

so like, I have no idea where you are with developing your writing talent (and some AMAZING writers still have no idea when I mention some of these things so there's that for ya) so I'm just going to dive right into the main idea here, the "contract with the reader."

now... in starting with this, it's probably best to think of it as an agreement between two people. it's a simple, unspoken one, but it's there more or less, you know? the "contract" is basically that, in exchange for the reader reading, the author promises to fulfill certain expectations: that is, to maintain the story premise or the story hook that drew the reader in.

for example: the summary at the start of say, some romantic comedy, talks all about lovely Gertrude and handsome Dave going through some comical mishaps together in southern Louisiana. the story starts out that way, but then, halfway through, the author basically dives right into serious rants on communism versus capitalism and the wonderful characters that the reader just fell in love with are shoved to the wayside so some random university professor can lecture for the rest of the book about shit the reader doesn't care about.

the contract there was broken. it's not that the content is *bad*. heck, it might even be a brilliant dissertation of the arguments for and against capitalism put into a nice format. no one would ever know though because it has no place in the romance novel it's forced into. neither section does the other justice, and the frustrated reader just tosses the book aside and just doesn't care to pick it up again.

that's the contract with the reader. the reader's time and regard are valuable, so in exchange for that time and well-regard, the author tacitly agrees to abide by certain rules. their world will operate within a certain degree of reason. the story will stay at least somewhat consistent (it may get weird as hell, but if it's consistently weird then it's still being consistent!). characters will act like the character they're described as, not anything else (the gutsy, powerful sorceress won't randomly crumple and have her brain plunge into her vagina just because the "hero" man is banging her). etc, etc.

not all of that's relevant to you, here, of course I just wanted to broach the subject because there are some things that you are doing that obviously break from the promise that you put forth at the start- that is, that this story is about 5 or 6 people in the Verdant Glade in Felwood.

Eridvah(sp?) hit the nail on the head, I think, in their comment about the Wrathgate interlude in particular. the start of the story somewhat implies that all these people are dead- and that's one of the draws of reading it through journal entries. they may not (and I guess they aren't) dead at all, but having that tantalizing implication dispelled so randomly is kind of dissuading. do you know what I mean? it's kind of like "oh, now whatever happens they're all okay. the end." even though there's like, 50 chapters left!

of course, I don't actually know all that, and the road to get there might be pretty interesting, but I just wanted to kind of reiterate what Eridvah(sp?) mentioned, and maybe clarify a little.

but mostly, I think the one that you, as the author, absolutely must do- like, essential super important ultra "do this" requirement- is take a step back every once in a while and read through the chapters as they're posted on the site. put all thoughts of what *you* know about the characters out of your mind. clear your head of all past, present, and future knowledge, and read *just* the words of your story, taking only what's written on the page and nothing more, and then see how the story reads as it is now. how the chapters flow, who do you connect with the most as a noob reader, all that jazz. what HASN'T come across, what do your readers have no reason to suspect, all that stuff too.

it's super, ultra ultra important. I mean, for me, one question I always, always ask myself is "why do the readers care to read this?" or "why should they care about this character?" I mean, *I* kinda care about my characters, but why should anyone else?

I don't really want to get into specifics without you rereading everything as one solid whole first because I don't want to influence your opinion or what kinds of things you should be asking yourself as you read, but I do want to be absolutely clear, so I'll use one example:

for instance, Theranil. he's not even at the glade. the interlude with him is a strong scene, but is that really the right place for it? introduced before he's even been put in context of the current characters? I mean, how does he come across to the reader? why should the reader care, at all? why should the reader feel sad?

sure, it's a sad scene, but why should the reader *feel* sad about it? why should they feel sad, versus just thinking he's a pathetic clown who just wasn't strong enough to disobey in this one instance? or why should they read it, when what they signed up for is reading about the dudes in the Verdant Glade? perhaps the best question though, is "why *here*?" what purpose does having the interlude here serve, as opposed to, say, introduced when Varen psychically plunges into Theranil's mind and brings it back to the elf's memory? or if Bron or Thrum call up the spirit of the elf ranger and she confronts him with everything he's willfully forgotten?

haha, I could go on forever with other potentials. the basic point, though, is simply "why here, why now, what purpose does this serve?"

and, like, fer sure dude, I'm not saying the story has to be an open book, or a linear path! shit naw man! that's not what writing's about! if you can trick the reader into opening a romantic comedy that's really one massive allegory to communism, then holy fuck, power to ya! what happens in that case though is that the two parts actively *support* each other. if the path from Felwood to Icecrown was totally logical and it's teased out through an appropraite amount of chapters, then shit yeah! go to Icecrown! but if the path is just random and interspersed with irrelevant data, then, really, ask yourself "why does the reader want to read this" and "why should they read this now."

anyways. I'm not laying any judgement or trying to dissuade you from any route you've decided to take. I just think the one thing you should do right now is just clear your mind of all foreknowledge and intention, and just go back and read chapters 1-35 in one continuous block on the site itself

[Shadowknight12]

Hah, wow, looks like I fucked shit up, eh? Onto the reviews!

Hey hon, if you want my honest opinion right here (and this is my own opinion, nobody else's), I've lost interest in the story. No offense, but the whole Thrum thing, and having gone so long off the main plot line I've just completely lost interest. I know that it's still pertinent to the main story and all, but after the third chapter of Thrum's story I began to get pretty annoyed.

You're honestly not a bad writer, the writing is fantastic. It just kind of feels that halfway through your original story you started a whole new one and didn't give us anything on the old one and that really bugged me. Your storyline is great as well, I just didn't like the entire second story line that made me go, 'wait, wtf?'

Of course I want honest opinions! It's the best policy and all that, right?

Yeah, sorry about that, I tried cutting it as short as possible, but I guess it was a pretty jarring deviation. Hopefully, you'll stick around for the next four chapters, where I'll be picking up the main storyline again.

yo, sup holmes. long time no see eh? heh, sorry, but I usually don't feel comfortable leaving empty praise, but don't like to comment if I can't see where the author's going and/or trying to do. I was thrown off at first by the interludes, but now I think I want to sort of... hmm, maybe just chime in about a couple things!

Oh, hey! Let me just say at first that I really appreciate you (and Serronas above) leaving a comment to state this kind of stuff instead of just vanishing. I can't tell you how constructive all of this is to me.

so like, I have no idea where you are with developing your writing talent (and some AMAZING writers still have no idea when I mention some of these things so there's that for ya) so I'm just going to dive right into the main idea here, the "contract with the reader."

Writing talent? What writing talent?

now... in starting with this, it's probably best to think of it as an agreement between two people. it's a simple, unspoken one, but it's there more or less, you know? the "contract" is basically that, in exchange for the reader reading, the author promises to fulfill certain expectations: that is, to maintain the story premise or the story hook that drew the reader in.

for example: the summary at the start of say, some romantic comedy, talks all about lovely Gertrude and handsome Dave going through some comical mishaps together in southern Louisiana. the story starts out that way, but then, halfway through, the author basically dives right into serious rants on communism versus capitalism and the wonderful characters that the reader just fell in love with are shoved to the wayside so some random university professor can lecture for the rest of the book about shit the reader doesn't care about.

Ah, yes, I see where you're getting at. Geez, now I know how Ayn Rand felt.

the contract there was broken. it's not that the content is *bad*. heck, it might even be a brilliant dissertation of the arguments for and against capitalism put into a nice format. no one would ever know though because it has no place in the romance novel it's forced into. neither section does the other justice, and the frustrated reader just tosses the book aside and just doesn't care to pick it up again.

that's the contract with the reader. the reader's time and regard are valuable, so in exchange for that time and well-regard, the author tacitly agrees to abide by certain rules. their world will operate within a certain degree of reason. the story will stay at least somewhat consistent (it may get weird as hell, but if it's consistently weird then it's still being consistent!). characters will act like the character they're described as, not anything else (the gutsy, powerful sorceress won't randomly crumple and have her brain plunge into her vagina just because the "hero" man is banging her). etc, etc.

Hah, I wish I could just say I drink half a bottle of vodka before writing every chapter, so that I can at least have an excuse for this sort of thing. (You may notice I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said so far, and that's because I fully understand what you're saying).

not all of that's relevant to you, here, of course I just wanted to broach the subject because there are some things that you are doing that obviously break from the promise that you put forth at the start- that is, that this story is about 5 or 6 people in the Verdant Glade in Felwood.

Eridvah(sp?) hit the nail on the head, I think, in their comment about the Wrathgate interlude in particular. the start of the story somewhat implies that all these people are dead- and that's one of the draws of reading it through journal entries. they may not (and I guess they aren't) dead at all, but having that tantalizing implication dispelled so randomly is kind of dissuading. do you know what I mean? it's kind of like "oh, now whatever happens they're all okay. the end." even though there's like, 50 chapters left!

As a tiny, quiet comment from the dark corner of this thread, I want to point out that the destruction of the Verdant Glade (as portrayed in the very, very first chapter) happens *after* Wrath of the Lich King (three years after that, in fact, given that the comment at the beginning of every journal entry reminds the reader that the events portrayed happened four years ago), which means that technically I haven't said anything one way or another. But since it evoked this kind of comment from the both of you, I must have clearly done something wrong.

But yes, that little comment aside, I completely get what you two mean. I failed to properly convey what I intended, and it's something I should examine in greater detail to avoid making the same mistakes again.

of course, I don't actually know all that, and the road to get there might be pretty interesting, but I just wanted to kind of reiterate what Eridvah(sp?) mentioned, and maybe clarify a little.

but mostly, I think the one that you, as the author, absolutely must do- like, essential super important ultra "do this" requirement- is take a step back every once in a while and read through the chapters as they're posted on the site. put all thoughts of what *you* know about the characters out of your mind. clear your head of all past, present, and future knowledge, and read *just* the words of your story, taking only what's written on the page and nothing more, and then see how the story reads as it is now. how the chapters flow, who do you connect with the most as a noob reader, all that jazz. what HASN'T come across, what do your readers have no reason to suspect, all that stuff too.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I do that every 20 chapters (chapter 40 was due next), but apparently I need to do it more often.

I'm not trying to defend myself here (since I have an artist friend who seriously cannot take any criticism ever, and I really don't want to be like him), but I think that the problem here is that I'm writing the kind of story I wish I could read. I mean, that's what this site is for, right? The thing is that my tastes deviate so far from the majority that what appeals to me is a complete turn-off for most. And since those tastes aren't sexual in nature, I can't put a warning in the summary for it. You see, the ideal story to me is the one that keeps me on my toes, that's not boring and predictable. I want to read a story where everything is jumbled out of order and I have to use my brainpower to piece everything together, rereading it several times until I finally get the big picture. To me, that kind of story is just awesome, because it's unusual and actually requires the reader to be an active participant instead of a passive spectator. I like mystery and suspense, I like being presented with contradictions so that I can figure out how the author is going to reconcile them, I like being shown hints of what comes (like Wrathgate) and being left to wonder just how that's going to come to pass.

But I guess I forgot (as usual) that most people would find that annoying and confusing. Well, that or I just haven't managed to pull it off well. Either way, I've some thinking to do about this.

it's super, ultra ultra important. I mean, for me, one question I always, always ask myself is "why do the readers care to read this?" or "why should they care about this character?" I mean, *I* kinda care about my characters, but why should anyone else?

Oh, I don't care about the characters, and I don't expect the reader to, either. I mean, *I* know them, and they're all awful, awful people (except maybe Ceristrasz). My purpose when writing this story is to explore the myriad facets of interpersonal relationships from an original point of view. And I guess this sort of thing is one of the risks of exploring what's off the beaten path. Sometimes you find something that works, sometimes you step into quicksand and die a painful death.

I don't really want to get into specifics without you rereading everything as one solid whole first because I don't want to influence your opinion or what kinds of things you should be asking yourself as you read, but I do want to be absolutely clear, so I'll use one example:

for instance, Theranil. he's not even at the glade. the interlude with him is a strong scene, but is that really the right place for it? introduced before he's even been put in context of the current characters? I mean, how does he come across to the reader? why should the reader care, at all? why should the reader feel sad?

sure, it's a sad scene, but why should the reader *feel* sad about it? why should they feel sad, versus just thinking he's a pathetic clown who just wasn't strong enough to disobey in this one instance? or why should they read it, when what they signed up for is reading about the dudes in the Verdant Glade? perhaps the best question though, is "why *here*?" what purpose does having the interlude here serve, as opposed to, say, introduced when Varen psychically plunges into Theranil's mind and brings it back to the elf's memory? or if Bron or Thrum call up the spirit of the elf ranger and she confronts him with everything he's willfully forgotten?

haha, I could go on forever with other potentials. the basic point, though, is simply "why here, why now, what purpose does this serve?"

Hah, wow, looks like I achieved exactly what I wanted to achieve, only somehow wrongly. My intention with Therenil was exactly that, to let the reader decide on their own what to think of him. If you wanted to feel bad for him, go ahead! If you thought he was a pathetic wretch who needs to die, then awesome! I guess I was just wanting to portray a meaningful scene without biasing the reader one way or another. I mean, what's the point in portraying all of this AFTER you know Therenil? You're obviously going to feel at least a little sad, and that's a foregone conclusion (unless you never liked him, in which case you're not going to be affected one way or another). How often do you get the chance to watch a meaningful event without previous knowledge of the people involved, just look at it from above with cold detachment?

Meh, I guess I'm just weird like that.

and, like, fer sure dude, I'm not saying the story has to be an open book, or a linear path! shit naw man! that's not what writing's about! if you can trick the reader into opening a romantic comedy that's really one massive allegory to communism, then holy fuck, power to ya! what happens in that case though is that the two parts actively *support* each other. if the path from Felwood to Icecrown was totally logical and it's teased out through an appropraite amount of chapters, then shit yeah! go to Icecrown! but if the path is just random and interspersed with irrelevant data, then, really, ask yourself "why does the reader want to read this" and "why should they read this now."

anyways. I'm not laying any judgement or trying to dissuade you from any route you've decided to take. I just think the one thing you should do right now is just clear your mind of all foreknowledge and intention, and just go back and read chapters 1-35 in one continuous block on the site itself

What I wanted to do with Therenil was to just stop doing the trite "here, meet this character, once you're used to him, I'll show you the important stuff" thing. I've already done that with the others! I wanted some variety, to change things. With him, you'd start seeing very important moments in his life, then the way he is now, and then the way he was before the Scourge. But on the other hand, I can put myself in your shoes, and I can definitely see how all of this makes no sense and feels random and poorly written.

The problem right now is that I don't really see myself as having done anything "wrong," per se (other than a general, chronic failure in execution that goes beyond a single chapter). I wilfully took a chance with originality and I failed, it's not something that can just be rewritten like a battle/sex scene, or fixed like a typo. I suppose I'll just increase my rereads like you recommended, keep clarity in mind, and try to finish the story asap. I mean, my main purpose here is to actually finish a story, I honestly don't care if it ends up being good or bad, I'll be satisfied the second I type the words "The End." I can't even remember how many aborted projects I have piling up in my memory, notebooks and hard-drives. When I started writing this story, I told myself that finishing it would be my main priority, with quality and originality coming far below that. If I can achieve all three, awesome. If not, tough luck, I'll have to make do with "finished."

Anyway, I want to stress that I am very grateful that you took the time to write so much. I know it's far more than the story deserves, and I don't want you to think I'm one of those people that just makes up excuses when they're being criticised. What I wanted to do here was to explain my reasoning for doing what I did, not as a way to defend myself, but as a way to illustrate what goes on behind the chapters. I completely agree with what you said, and I'll definitely try to keep it in mind for the future.

[wanderingaddict]

um... I think I messed up with some of the words I used

when I say "care" like in "why should the reader care about this character" I don't particularly mean... "like." I mean, more in a general sense, "why should the reader be *interested* in this character?"

do you get what I mean? there are perfectly awful characters that are great for the story and everyone wants them to die, and while the reader may not "care" for the character, they still have some sort of emotional investment and/or interest in what the character does.

so it actually is sort of strange to hear you say that you don't particularly like any of your characters. if you don't think that they're at least somewhat interesting, why are you writing about them? and it's the same for not caring about the quality of the story and just wanting it to be done. why not just hammer the whole thing out and then post it as one solid whole? why bother with the ups and downs of feedback at all?

haha, not to put you on the spot or anything, but I just find it a bit curious. and it's also distracting my from clarifying my point about the timing of the interludes and stuff.

what I think I'm not being very good at getting across is urging you to consider the effect of placing one scene "here" versus "there". the reason I brought up Theranil is because to me, it's perhaps the clearest example of a scene that could draw much more interest from the reader if put into the context of the overall plot. you know what I mean? like, in some sense, it's kind of a spoiler. you're saying flat-out that "hey! this guy has got some problems!" only instead of the reader knowing why they should be at all interested in those problems, it's just kind of tossed out there. it's very random- and though it may be pertinant to the story later- it's completely irrelevant *now*.

which also makes me comment on your "failing" with the interludes- the idea by itself *isn't* a failure. if they were interludes with relevancey to either the time of the surrounding journals (i.e. cultists gathering to mount an attack, other adventurers wandering around Jaedanar, etc) or even decribing the Felwood or the Verdant glade as it is "now," then they'd be totally integrated into the story whole. a natural part of the flow. the reason I was trying to encourage you to reread your story as a whole was because I wanted you to kind of see how it looks right now- that is, that the first 20 chapters or so are completely related to Felwood/journeying there, and then the recent ones just kind of generally start to meander around.

maybe I could try a simple analogy? imagine me writing a story about an orc. an orc doing generally mundane, if cute, things during his day and a mildly entertaining read in general. then, right before he works up the nerve to confess his feelings for the travelling human salesman that wanders about nearby, I cut to a seen about a dwarf pally barely surviving an attack by a bunch of Dragonmaw orcs.

and then I just continue with the orc and the human salesman a little bit more.

now, it doesn't matter how that scene is relevant to the story- if, say, 20 chapters later I'm going to have a dwarf pally come in and hate on the orc- because in terms of the story itself, it has to face two questions: what purpose does it serve having it then and there? it just distracts attention from the orc's confession, and leaves the reader confused and perturbed. for all the reader can tell, it's something that really derves to be entered in its own seperate story- or, at the end of this one. or maybe, if it's placed just after the dwarf enters the main storyline, it's put in the context of his character, so the reader can be like "ooooooh, I see! THAT'S why he hates orcs!"

it has a much stronger impact because the reader sees one dot and connects it to another themselves. I don't have to say that this is the reason the dwarf hates orcs. I don't even have to say that he hates all orcs, I just have him be mean to the main character and people will grasp why. I've provided a bit of data, and the conclusions can be drawn from it on their own.

the content you've put in these interludes, however, aren't... like that. there's nothing to be drawn, or to ponder about. you're pretty much just telling us that "hey, heads up! Therandil's going to be joining the gang!" even though we have no pretext for knowing that. with Thrum we do, but now, from the moment Therandil shows up we know that he'll somehow just be buddy-buddy.

there's a difference between tossing out some kernals of truth, hints to some greater overarching plot or some character's hidden agenda, and just being, well, random, which honestly any author in these archives can be. I do know exactly what you're talking about, honestly! I love looking far ahead into the future! it's just that these interludes aren't really hints of things to come so much as "gee I feel like writing about this right now" and then posting it. do you kind of get what I mean when I talk about the interludes being integrated? the first two, with garos and therandil, I could be leinient about and be like "oh, maybe he might have a plan for the future" but with the dragon, the wrathgate, it's just kind of like "okay, these are just random scenes that could or might not be even real?"

I don't mean to dissuade you from continuing however you want, or to discourage. I jsut want you to think about your story's structure and how best *you* can serve *it*. one easy way (for me) to do that is- sure- read your own story with nothing but what's on the page in mind. it doesn't matter that you wrote it to appeal to yourself- what matters is that you simply critique to yourself with "what haven't I achieved that I wanted to here" in mind.

hah, it may just be that we have totally opposite approaches to posting. I'd rather sit on one chapter for a year than post anything less than "finished", and you just want to get it done. but, you know, sera sera. if you're happy with your story and the way it reads then that's all that matters ^.^

p.s. just about the timeline of "four years ago": WoW is set 5 years after the WC3, and BC was ~5 years after WoW, with Wrath ~X time after that. or maybe Wrath is ~5 years after BC? Blizz wonks up their timeline like no tomorrow

anywho, I have no idea of when you're setting this, but my comment about the Wrathgate scene ending "their death" mystery, is that WotLK is supposedly still "now" in the reader's mind, so "four years ago" plus draenei and blood elves being around means BC time-ish. the actual destruction of the glade could take place at any point, but the words "no survivors" and the "scouring of journals for clues" (with these characters narrating their time) strongly implies that something big and bad happened before/during WotLK. so... yeah I actually have no idea when you're basing the sentinals finding these journals. I mean... now... what? heh, you latest comment about the timeline you're basing this in means "four years ago is WotLK" so... so like, "current time" is now after Cata?

[Shadowknight12]

um... I think I messed up with some of the words I used

when I say "care" like in "why should the reader care about this character" I don't particularly mean... "like." I mean, more in a general sense, "why should the reader be *interested* in this character?"

do you get what I mean? there are perfectly awful characters that are great for the story and everyone wants them to die, and while the reader may not "care" for the character, they still have some sort of emotional investment and/or interest in what the character does.

so it actually is sort of strange to hear you say that you don't particularly like any of your characters. if you don't think that they're at least somewhat interesting, why are you writing about them? and it's the same for not caring about the quality of the story and just wanting it to be done. why not just hammer the whole thing out and then post it as one solid whole? why bother with the ups and downs of feedback at all?

haha, not to put you on the spot or anything, but I just find it a bit curious. and it's also distracting my from clarifying my point about the timing of the interludes and stuff.

Well, it's a self-challenge thing. I'm aiming to prove myself I can be unbiased and write a story that doesn't particularly appeal to me, with characters I don't identify with, and the only thing that actually kept me interested in the story was the (to me) original way of presenting the chapters. This is actually for a good reason besides what I just stated. If I don't really care about the story, I can keep my inner editor quiet long enough for me to actually finish anything. If I actually do care, then I will insist on it being *perfect*, which is not possible, which makes me hate the story for not living up to my standards, which makes me give up on it. By remaining emotionally detached, I'm able to actually achieve something for once.

I thought about writing it in a huge chunk and posting it all at once, but I reconsidered. Posting it somewhere gave me a pretty tangible incentive to actually finish it, since there'd be the whole "people are expecting it to be finished" thing. if it's on my hard drive, who's going to bat an eyelash if one day I just give up on it? And then there's the fact that I calculated an increase in received feedback if I posted the chapters one by one (meaning, I'd be able to get multiple reviews from the same reader, as opposed to a single one).

what I think I'm not being very good at getting across is urging you to consider the effect of placing one scene "here" versus "there". the reason I brought up Theranil is because to me, it's perhaps the clearest example of a scene that could draw much more interest from the reader if put into the context of the overall plot. you know what I mean? like, in some sense, it's kind of a spoiler. you're saying flat-out that "hey! this guy has got some problems!" only instead of the reader knowing why they should be at all interested in those problems, it's just kind of tossed out there. it's very random- and though it may be pertinant to the story later- it's completely irrelevant *now*.

which also makes me comment on your "failing" with the interludes- the idea by itself *isn't* a failure. if they were interludes with relevancey to either the time of the surrounding journals (i.e. cultists gathering to mount an attack, other adventurers wandering around Jaedanar, etc) or even decribing the Felwood or the Verdant glade as it is "now," then they'd be totally integrated into the story whole. a natural part of the flow. the reason I was trying to encourage you to reread your story as a whole was because I wanted you to kind of see how it looks right now- that is, that the first 20 chapters or so are completely related to Felwood/journeying there, and then the recent ones just kind of generally start to meander around.

Eh, I get what you mean. It wasn't actually random, in case I haven't made it clear. I have pretty much all chapters/interludes planned in advance. I may rearrange their order (like I did with these past few interludes, when I realised I had miscalculated the length of the storyline, and so I had to cram a few together), but it's a very minute thing. I never intended for the Angrathar interlude to be anywhere near its actual place in the timeline, because I wanted to go for something different. I mean, I thought about introducing the Therenil interludes closer to the place where he appears in the main plot, but I felt it would be boring and predictable, it'd be pretty much what I did with Aeranil and Thrum. Yes, he doesn't make sense *now*, but the Angrathar interlude showed where he fits in the storyline, he's not some random dude I threw in, he's a main character that will appear later on.

Now, that was to dispel any notion that I might be just throwing interludes at random; because I thought you meant "it seems random, even though I know you planned this stuff in advance, you just failed at executing it properly," and now I'm actually getting the feeling that you think I just flip a coin and type whatever comes to me. Because shit, the thought of that just made me laugh out loud at how OOC that'd be for me.

maybe I could try a simple analogy? imagine me writing a story about an orc. an orc doing generally mundane, if cute, things during his day and a mildly entertaining read in general. then, right before he works up the nerve to confess his feelings for the travelling human salesman that wanders about nearby, I cut to a seen about a dwarf pally barely surviving an attack by a bunch of Dragonmaw orcs.

and then I just continue with the orc and the human salesman a little bit more.

now, it doesn't matter how that scene is relevant to the story- if, say, 20 chapters later I'm going to have a dwarf pally come in and hate on the orc- because in terms of the story itself, it has to face two questions: what purpose does it serve having it then and there? it just distracts attention from the orc's confession, and leaves the reader confused and perturbed. for all the reader can tell, it's something that really derves to be entered in its own seperate story- or, at the end of this one. or maybe, if it's placed just after the dwarf enters the main storyline, it's put in the context of his character, so the reader can be like "ooooooh, I see! THAT'S why he hates orcs!"

it has a much stronger impact because the reader sees one dot and connects it to another themselves. I don't have to say that this is the reason the dwarf hates orcs. I don't even have to say that he hates all orcs, I just have him be mean to the main character and people will grasp why. I've provided a bit of data, and the conclusions can be drawn from it on their own.

the content you've put in these interludes, however, aren't... like that. there's nothing to be drawn, or to ponder about. you're pretty much just telling us that "hey, heads up! Therandil's going to be joining the gang!" even though we have no pretext for knowing that. with Thrum we do, but now, from the moment Therandil shows up we know that he'll somehow just be buddy-buddy.

there's a difference between tossing out some kernals of truth, hints to some greater overarching plot or some character's hidden agenda, and just being, well, random, which honestly any author in these archives can be. I do know exactly what you're talking about, honestly! I love looking far ahead into the future! it's just that these interludes aren't really hints of things to come so much as "gee I feel like writing about this right now" and then posting it. do you kind of get what I mean when I talk about the interludes being integrated? the first two, with garos and therandil, I could be leinient about and be like "oh, maybe he might have a plan for the future" but with the dragon, the wrathgate, it's just kind of like "okay, these are just random scenes that could or might not be even real?"

Yah, I know what you mean.

EDIT: Should be fixed, with any luck.

I don't mean to dissuade you from continuing however you want, or to discourage. I jsut want you to think about your story's structure and how best *you* can serve *it*. one easy way (for me) to do that is- sure- read your own story with nothing but what's on the page in mind. it doesn't matter that you wrote it to appeal to yourself- what matters is that you simply critique to yourself with "what haven't I achieved that I wanted to here" in mind.

hah, it may just be that we have totally opposite approaches to posting. I'd rather sit on one chapter for a year than post anything less than "finished", and you just want to get it done. but, you know, sera sera. if you're happy with your story and the way it reads then that's all that matters ^.^

Yeah, hah, the problem is that I *like* the way it is right now, but that's evidently not the way I'm going to get readers. And that's the important thing, in the end. That's the reason I'm posting it here, to get feedback. If I scare away the readers, I'm just defeating the entire purpose of what I'm doing in the first place.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that was a good one. I honestly wish I could afford the luxury of working on a chapter for a long time, so that it slowly distils into sheer excellence. In my case, however, time simply increases the chances of deletion/complete rewriting/disgusted abandonment. That's also the reason behind the speedy updates! It's for the story's own good, even if quality must be sacrificed in the process.

p.s. just about the timeline of "four years ago": WoW is set 5 years after the WC3, and BC was ~5 years after WoW, with Wrath ~X time after that. or maybe Wrath is ~5 years after BC? Blizz wonks up their timeline like no tomorrow

anywho, I have no idea of when you're setting this, but my comment about the Wrathgate scene ending "their death" mystery, is that WotLK is supposedly still "now" in the reader's mind, so "four years ago" plus draenei and blood elves being around means BC time-ish. the actual destruction of the glade could take place at any point, but the words "no survivors" and the "scouring of journals for clues" (with these characters narrating their time) strongly implies that something big and bad happened before/during WotLK. so... yeah I actually have no idea when you're basing the sentinals finding these journals. I mean... now... what? heh, you latest comment about the timeline you're basing this in means "four years ago is WotLK" so... so like, "current time" is now after Cata?

Yeah, you can say that again. Though I actually thought this sort of thing would be common knowledge by now, since Cata is all the rage. Four years ago is BC. Three years ago would be WotLK.

Official Timeline --> Lacks the entry for Cataclysm, but it should be in the year 30, according to this article:

Three years have passed since the military forces of the Horde and Alliance first set foot on the shores of Northrend, and they now wage war amidst the disasters wrought by Deathwing's return to the world.

Then, there's the Malfurion reference from the first chapter, coming from this article: Malfurion#Cataclysm, which states that his awakening happened shortly before Cata (and definitely after WotLK). In retrospect, I could have been clearer about it, but I didn't want to be too heavy-handed.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Shadowknight12

[wanderingaddict]

hey yo wassup! shit dog, I got like, time now and all that what with my latest story piece done so like, I can reply to threads and all that jazz. fuck.

hah, I hardly even remember where to pick up, so yeah I'll just go for what I can recall offhand. so like, the timeline stuff- I don't wanna be nitpicky or belabor a point or anything, but in my experience, every reader comes into the WoW archive set in a different "place" on the timeline, ya know? I mean, shit, I've been playing the Warcraft storyverse all my life, and WoW since launch day, but I'm still like, fucking 3 years back on the cusp of BC! or even in the middle of old vanilla! heh, so unless you give a clear time-point for the reader to use as a reference, they're probably just going to naturally revert to whatever time they associate WoW with (heh, one of the reasons that people forget that the forsaken, and the war with the Horde, would have been going on for 11 years now). so yeah! hah, even with just my own example, WotLK hasn't even happened, imo. it's actually jarring to read stories set in Northrend and with DKs and shit, because I'm all torn between like, reading about a potentially cool story and just being like naaaw, that can't happen! DKs are Scourge!