Where Are The Men?

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

I have been reading homo-erotica (mostly male-male) for a few years now (since I was about 15) and have a single important question to ask: Where are the men? Now, while you’re looking all types of confused let me explain. It appears that many writers of slash fiction (slash being the term for homosexual relationships in fan fiction) have a hard time writing a story about two men in love who act like men. The “top” is usually an assertive, testosterone driven jerk who (on the surface, at least) wants nothing more then a one night stand and a toy. The “bottom” is generally an over effeminate, fragile and pretty little thing who’s deeply in love with whoever sleeps with them first and has absolutely no back bone. Now, well, gee. These are mostly women writing these things so what are they saying? Are they trying to say that all women are spineless and weak? What about that whole “feminist movement” thing, or are we over that already? Or does this only pertain to men?

One of the main reasons I write and read slash fiction being that I’m tired of reading stories that are all the same, this can get pretty frustrating. In “traditional” heterosexual romance novels and the like there’s always a big strong man and a hopeless little female. Okay, not always, but I got tired trying to weed through the bad stories to find the good ones. It’s getting to be the same for Slash. It’s like there’s a formula that’s been around for ages that we can’t break out of. Have we been so programmed that we can’t thing out of the “dominate/submissive” gender roles?

Of course, what do we have to base off of? I am what is lovingly known as a “fag hag.” I have quite a few gay male friends and to tell the truth, they are all varying degrees of “fem.” Hardly any of them play any type of sport, they complain about the state of their nails and wear women’s clothing. Well, gee golly wiz, no wonder the stories have such cliché set ups! The only thing we really have are the stereotypes that say “Gay = Feminine.”

Well, I have been known to be rather butch and yet, look! I’m in a perfectly heterosexual relationship with a member of the male half of the species! Well would you look at that! Of course, before now I was almost exclusively dating girls. But, let’s look at this for a minute. Neither of them were what you would call “girly.” Not to say they were totally butch either, but they didn’t obsess over shoes either. The last girl I dated was a tough little Latina who loved to wear excessive amounts of black makeup. Cute, short, but was known to hold her own in a fight, fist or otherwise. She rarely wore skirts (except on laundry day…) and had a gutter mouth that rivaled my own sailor-like tendancies, but she was most definitely female. This doesn’t seem to really hold up to the whole “the butch and the bitch” stereotype, now does it? We both wear baggy clothes, we both hung out mostly with other boys, neither of us had much interest in any of those boys (save for the ones we did) and neither were really submissive in that relationship. Every once of determination or passion was met in kind.

So, what does that mean? Were we acting in a way we shouldn’t have, or just acting as “us?” Does the fact we liked girls more then boys reflect in any way on how we present ourselves? Let’s analyze this for a moment. My Ex (we’ll call her “Ann” for now) grew up in a world surrounded by other boys. She was always out running around and getting dirty, not exactly something made for wearing frilly dresses and shiny shoes. Not only that, but she went to the High School of Fashion Industries, a school notorious for it’s very liberal politics and social views. To be “straight” in this school was rather rare. It’s more or less a “love and be loved” type of situation; no one really shunned anyone for being who they were, and if they did they didn’t speak of it… often. On top of all of this, however, is the way her mother raised her. While not positive on the religious aspects of the woman’s life, I do know one thing: She was completely against anything that even smelled vaguely homosexual in her children. This resulted in a clash between Ann and her mother. Okay, several clashes. And yet, what do we have here? A girl who loves who she loves, whether it be male or female and wore whatever she felt like wearing that particular day, and acting no differently then any other girl with her upbringing would.

This, actually, is one of the (many) topics my love tends to get heated about, his motto on the subject being “There is more to a person then who they fuck!” Well, apparently not according to the brunt of the Gay community. And no, I’m not saying all homosexual men are positively flamboyant for I know that they are not. In fact, I have a great example.

During the warm months in NYC (which is more or less year round save for a month or two of winter) my friends and I would traverse down to Christopher St. pier, a place notorious for the amount of homosexuals that tend to hang out there. We ran into a guy (lets call him Jack) who was a 26 year old bisexual. Believe me, you wouldn’t know unless he outright told you. He was wearing an oversized Tupac shirt and massive blue jeans. He looked like your average, slightly “ghetto” 20-some odd year old guy. While yes, “technically” he wouldn’t be considered a homosexual, he told us that when he first “came out” he’d run around with gay pride flags and buttons and do the whole “gay thing.” This little phase ended, however, when he realized something; he didn’t need to advertise himself like that. He didn’t need to change his entire way of life and sense of style to match up with his new found preferences. So gone were the gay pride emblems and back were the baggy clothes. However, the preference stayed.

So, based on these two examples, wouldn’t it seem that stories and media could change to accommodate the rest of the Gay Community, not just the part that supports the “dominate/submissive” ideals? Or is that asking a little too much?

In a world governed by societies who place so much importance in origins we begin to decide who people are based on what they are. Much like how a black man who doesn’t listen to 50 Cent and Ludacris is supposedly acting “white”, a man who likes fashion and is very “posh” is said to act “Gay.” And vice versa. You have to act a certain way in order to be accepted, and it’s getting old. The television would have you think that feminine meant owning about two thousand shoes and a different outfit to match each accordingly, while masculine meant to own just as many tools and have nothing on their minds but sex, alcohol and sports. The worse part is, people except this! What happened to civil rights and equal treatment? What happened to people being aloud to just be themselves, and not some cheap, mocked up versions of who they should be?

[Guest Agaib]

Hmm, the problem I think is two fold on this issue. Half of it is the popular idea that is spread by the media. But it isnt ALL the media. All that the media really is, is a massive organization that spreads the information it thinks people will want to hear. In other words, the media just tells us what were thinking, and its our own job to break these stereotypes ourselves and the media will follow. People put themselves inside of a stereotype because they dont want to have to think for themselves. Everybody else has already decided how you should behave in a situation so it makes it easy to live.

I personally beleive in breaking stereotypes. Sometimes I'll have a bit of a cliche inside a story I'm writing, but its really just for personal pleasure. A cliche I enjoy. While I'm writing it however, I keep in mind the fact that it doesnt really always turn out like that in real life.

People need to learn to make up their minds for themselves. I'm not gonna baby them through it. I pride myself on not actually fitting into one stereo type very well.

[Guest ChibiShiva]

It appears that many writers of slash fiction (slash being the term for homosexual relationships in fan fiction) have a hard time writing a story about two men in love who act like men. The “top” is usually an assertive, testosterone driven jerk who (on the surface, at least) wants nothing more then a one night stand and a toy. The “bottom” is generally an over effeminate, fragile and pretty little thing who’s deeply in love with whoever sleeps with them first and has absolutely no back bone. Now, well, gee. These are mostly women writing these things so what are they saying? Are they trying to say that all women are spineless and weak? What about that whole “feminist movement” thing, or are we over that already? Or does this only pertain to men?

Well wow, someone that thinks like me! .

I write gay romance as well, and all my men aren't feminine. I try to avoid that if I can. I'm tired of stereotypes. So I try to make them different.

In my current story, the most feminine-looking one is actually a very fiery guy who COULD top, but doesn't like it that much. The main character, even though he's a bottom most of the time, has proven he can top. His boyfriend is a top, yet doesn't mind being on the bottom. Both are quite manly; it their personalities are different. My bottom isn't exactly fragile or weak, since he can fight with a sword and excells at it, yet he does have personality and stress/fears management issues. BUT he's got the strenght to overcome his problems.

On the "are women spineless and weak" thing... I better not get started! *laughs*. I'm tired of this as well, and my few female characters won't respect THAT stereotypes. One is a skilled, girly assassin/thief; the other one is a kick-ass swordfighter who easily could top her boyfriend/brother if she was male... or with toys.

Little details like that matter to me. I'm tired of girls seeing as pretty little, fragile things. I'm not one of those, I have to admit it (I might just be 5'5", if I have to fight I will, and I won't be scared). And it's why I'm getting let down by some video games. Females = weak mages, male = strong warriors. PLEASE give me something else! Same with some men pictured as "gay" in games; they're even more girly than girls. Ok not all games are like that, take Final Fantasy 6 (Terra and Celes) or Legend of Dragoon (Rose and Meru). I think they break with the general idea that a girl has to be stuck in back-row and support the male characters while they fight. They CAN fight. I like it.

Today I look at the games and movies, and I go mad. I'm tired of seeing girls being lovey-dovey and gay guys that care more about their manucure (sp?) than their lives. It doesn't give a very good image, rather weak, "always need a REAL man in order to succeed in whatever they do" type of characters. It drives me nuts that values like that are transmaitted through mass medias. I'll agree it's not always like that... but for what I see, it's -usually- like that.

When I am going to get a horror or action movie with manly gay guys?

</ends ramble>

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

You both rock my socks right now. ^___^

It's things like this tht make me love my boyfriend. He's bisexual and has no problem acting how he wants to act at the moment, or who knows this. There's always been this running joke that I'm wearing the pants in this relationship, but really, neither of use feel we have to act according to our gender. He's soft, but strong. Little about him is "classically male" and there's little about me that is "classically female." We make choices together, pay for each other when we go out and pick eachother up. In bed, it's basically who wants control takes control. Neither of us feel like we should or shouldn't do things because society told us we have to act this way because of what we have in our pants.

That's how relationships should work. Unless you have a person who is perfectly OK with reliquishing all control as if they were a child, and another to take all of the control, it won't work. And even then, it's not very healthy. I had to break off a friendship with a girl because I realized "If she doesn't get someone to take care of her, I'll have to. I can't take care of this girl who is 2 years my senior! I can hardly take care of myself!" And while I love her to death (and was IN love with her for a while) I knew this could only end badly. I'm 18, I'm not ready to be a mother yet, especially not to a girl who was in collage and should have been fully brought up by her own parents already.

[WotanAnubis]

And it's why I'm getting let down by some video games. Females = weak mages, male = strong warriors. PLEASE give me something else! Same with some men pictured as "gay" in games; they're even more girly than girls. Ok not all games are like that, take Final Fantasy 6 (Terra and Celes) or Legend of Dragoon (Rose and Meru). I think they break with the general idea that a girl has to be stuck in back-row and support the male characters while they fight. They CAN fight. I like it.

Fire Emblem!

Seriously, if you're looking for girls who can kicks ass, look no further. The all-female Pegasus Knight class for example, though admittedly designed as mage killers and dodgers, are usually Death on Wings. And since they can move so far so quickly, they can easily be used to zoom all over the battlefield taking out hordes of enemies.

About the topic itself, I wish I had something to say because it's an interesting topic. Unfortunately, I'm a femslesh writer through and through and, for some reason, femslash doesn't seem to have as much of these problems. Girl/girl couples are usually on totally equal footing.

Which, perhaps, reveals another aspect of our cultural heritage. That we expect girls to treat each other as equals (no matter how much they may hate each other's guts) and that we expect men to constantly try to be the Alpha Male. Or the bootlicking Omega, of course.

[Guest Agaib]

On the subject of women in battle in games. I would not say that the problem is that women are always the weak mages or anything. The thing I notice is that girls must be either weak mage or powerful sexy battle tank. It seems that there is never anything in between. We seem to be in capable of deciding whether women should be damsels in distress or Laura Croft clones without ever considering a middle ground.

[Guest ChibiShiva]

I would not say that the problem is that women are always the weak mages or anything. The thing I notice is that girls must be either weak mage or powerful sexy battle tank.

Hehe... so true. But I haven't seen too many of the powerful battle tanks, except in games where you can select the gender of your characters (and then it turns out guys choose female charas because they're sexy, girls because they're girls...)

Another thing I've noticed is in the personalities usually given to females: either the "love-starved twiit" (weirdly enough, quoted from one series that has exploited romance to its max in the last 3-4 games, Final Fantasy - amazing how things changed...) "damsel in distress", or the mysterious/evil sexy girl with -no- emotions until she remembers her past, then it turns into an angst-fest.

It seems that there is never anything in between.

So true, so very true. Sadly.

[WotanAnubis]

I may be wrong on this, but when it comes to male/female videogame clichés it seems that games with a male lead have more of a 'let's get out there and kick some bad guy ass and SAVE THE WORLD' whereas the ones with female leads are more 'I just want to protect the ones I love'. Again, showing that men are fundamentally aggressive and women are more passive (or defensive).

With the notable exception of the Metroid series, of course. But then again, that one falls into the 'sexy battle tank' category.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

With the notable exception of the Metroid series, of course. But then again, that one falls into the 'sexy battle tank' category.

No, not really. "Sexy Battle Tank" is more of a useless and strategicly placed armour thing thatgenerally involves a lot of focus on the fact that the lead is indeed female (IE Laura croft). With Metroid, most people don't even know that she's a SHE, it's not trying to draw you with the fact that the lead character is a hot girl. Metroid is actually one of the obcenly rare examples of "Look! A lead character that JUST SO HAPPENS to be FEMALE!" It's not really like a big deal.

[WotanAnubis]

No, not really. "Sexy Battle Tank" is more of a useless and strategicly placed armour thing thatgenerally involves a lot of focus on the fact that the lead is indeed female (IE Laura croft). With Metroid, most people don't even know that she's a SHE, it's not trying to draw you with the fact that the lead character is a hot girl. Metroid is actually one of the obcenly rare examples of "Look! A lead character that JUST SO HAPPENS to be FEMALE!" It's not really like a big deal.

I agree wholeheartedly.

But... well... Samus is sexy. And she does look like a genuine battle tank. So I thought the phrase was whollly appropriate.

[Guest Big Samurai]

You all had to bring up Samus Aran, my favorite female video game character. She was busting the genre clichés long before most of us even knew what they were.

Regarding the main topic, I suspect that it has something to do with the long-held stereotype that being ultra-male also means being homophobic. Though this is certainly not true, perceptions will take time to change.

(And I agree with ol' Wotan that femmeslash seems to be less prone to this problem. Reasons? Not sure just yet.)

[Charging Handles Forward]

- Wait, Cate Archer has nothing to do with this! -

[StoryJunkie]

And the chick in Silent Hill 3 is...

Well the debate about slash stereotyping kind of died....

Meh, well, I don't read it much, although I find slash writers more (shall we say) passionate in their descriptions?

There's always a submissive/dominant. Geesh, even our gene pool is filled with dominant and recessive traits. Something has to come out on top!

(you may groan now).

It's a nice vehicle to get out not only your horny fantasy, but also to wonder about how it turned out, because I don't know about you, but sometimes, my characters just run away on me with their uppitiness and submissiveness. It's part of human nature. Some people have a "don't care" attitude and its interesting to delve into it and find the source of it. Others dive in head-first, and again, the character bears analysis.

It's all part of a good story.

[Charging Handles Forward]

All I know is that a great deal of slash fics are created at the expense of pre-existing storylines, pairings, and characterization, DBZ slash fics, in particular. Whenever this happens, the canon that spawned the story in the first place is reduced to a mere vehicle for the fic author's whims and thereby rendered a terrible disservice.

[StoryJunkie]

hm, I never thought of that. I hang around originals now.

I really corralled there, actually.

Fenced in.

It's a heading without any friends....

(not that I'm complaining) *sucks it up* There, all better!

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

All I know is that a great deal of slash fics are created at the expense of pre-existing storylines, pairings, and characterization, DBZ slash fics, in particular. Whenever this happens, the canon that spawned the story in the first place is reduced to a mere vehicle for the fic author's whims and thereby rendered a terrible disservice.

I know... it's actually one of the things that spurred the rant/essay thing. Thoug, for whatever reason totally dropped out of the bottom of the article... huh... My writing controls me....

But yeah. Your DBZ Slash example is a GREAT one. It's like, just to have an excuse to have Vegeta and Goku get it on, Vegeta becomes a total chick out of NO WHERE! Excuse me, this is the PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS HERE. He is not going to become a simpering uke in the face of Goku's magically uke making cock!

[WotanAnubis]

He is not going to become a simpering uke in the face of Goku's magically uke making cock!

Well... if the whole point/plot of the story is that Goku's cock magically makes ukes I wouldn't be so surprised if it happened.

...

Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write.