Immigration

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

i only have one requirement for immigrants...stay at our country, enjoy our beneifits... BUT PLEASE, PLEASE SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE!

Yes please!

[Madilayn]

We have this problem in Australia as well - and I'm in the middle of trying to get my fiancee migrated from England to be with me.

I work in recruitment, and have recently begun some campaigns to fill graduate programs. I'm starting to think that there are no Australian-born people in Uni here!

The easiest way for a lot of people to get into Australia is via a student visa. So we have a lot of Asian and Indian students coming over and doing Masters degrees to get their Student Visa and then when they are finished, applying for permanent residency (and usually getting it), then bringing their families (not just wife & kids, but often brothers, sisters, parents & grandparents) on family reunion visas.

It's well known that someof these failies will spend all thei rincome to get that one person here to study so they can all get over here and basically "sidesetp" the usual immigration procedures.

What really irritates me, is many of these students don't even take the time to learn English enough to get a job - now considering most of these are doing Engineering or Accounting subjects, and then will be dealing with English-speaking people on fairly complex matters when working - one would hope that you could understand and be understood. Unfortunately this is not the case.

Many Uni's provide lecure notes & even recorded lectures in their own languages, so they have no incentive to learn good English.

What makes it even worse - there are so many of them, that the Master Degree means absolutely nothing here now.

And to add to the insult, there are people who have "businesses" in helping these students apply for jobs. They prepare their resumes & cover letters in perfect English, and then teach them phonetically how to answer the "ususal" questions.

I know this because my company was caught at the beginning of this year.

We regularly phone screen all applicants, paying special attention to those who have no schooling other than their last degree in Australia. We had a great candidate - who had some Aussie experience in the relevant field and so called him for a quick phone screen (to check English). Fantastic - no accent, answered intelligently and comprehensively. Bring him in for a face to face interview.

He could not understand a word I said to him when he walked in the door. What did I do? "May I tell the Consultant who is here to see them?" and then "Could you please complete these registration forms", and then went into my speil explaining what page was what.

His reply "Not understand what you say - not speak good English".

Fortunately, one of our consultants spoke his language, and that was how we got the story.

This seems to be a huge problem throughout Australia - and we have enclaves of people who may as well be living in their original countries.

Australia has now introduced a test that you have to pass before you can become a citizen - about Australian culture & values (and English - as the test is only given in English).

But we have to get tough on migration. For my fiancee to come out here, as he isn't a "professional" (he's a short order cook & kitchenhand) it will cost $1300 for the "prospective spouse" visa, then, within 9 months, another $1000 for his permanent residency when we get married (we have to be married within 9 months of his arrival) plus the airfares.

And it will take anything up to 12 months for the visa to be approved.

Student Visas, on the other hand are half that price (but then they have to pay full fees for uni's ) and can be approved within 4 months.

I believe firmly that if you are going to live in another counrty, you have gone there because you want to live in that country, in their culture and embrace their customs. That means speaking the official language.

The funny thing is. it seems to be only in English speaking countries where the "not speak enough English to do daily things" is tolerated. In may non-English speaking countries, not speaking their language is tolerated in visitors, but if you live there, you had better speak their language if you want to get deent service, or to conduct day to day business.

And in those countries, nobody screams "discrimination" about that. It's accepted.

Perhaps we in English speaking countries should stop being so politically correct about our own language and country. It's almost a cultural cringe, and should stop.

[Shirotaka]

More or less, America sucks on it's immigration policy and the general snotty attitude held towards the concept.

We all came from the same place, whether you believe in the Bible and it was Israel or Evolutionary theory and we evolved from apes in Africa, we are all the same.

Race, religion, color, language are just ways in which we distinguish ourselves and express our individuality, for pride, not superiority.

Let people live where they want to live:

The economy will be fine.

If we can't speak thier language, so what? There are 300 MILLION Americans, find someone who does.

If one of them "Took your job!".. get a new one.

America for Americans.. All men are created equal.

[foeofthelance]

Let people live where they want to live:

The economy will be fine.

If we can't speak thier language, so what? There are 300 MILLION Americans, find someone who does.

If one of them "Took your job!".. get a new one.

- The economy only works because it is circular. Money out comes back in. A lot of illegal immigrants send the money they make here back to their families at home, as the american dollar is still stronger than most other denominations. Money that goes out that way doesn't come back in.

- How are they suppose to function if they can't communicate with others? How can they give directions to say, a 911 operator who only speaks English? How am I supposed to give directions to someone who only speaks Spanish? And finally, why is it that only the illegal immigrants shouldn't have to learn the language everyone else does? The Spaniards did, the Italians did it, the Koreans did it, the Chinese did it, the Japanese did it, the Germans did it, the Czechs did it, the Russians did it, and so on and so on. Why should Latin Americans be different?

- Most jobs taken by illegal immigrants are either entry level or blue collar work. Thast's not exactly the easiest thing to find, unless the person who has been replaced decides to move, perhaps their entire family, to a new location, where they most likely have to displace someone.

Want some more proof why illegal immigration needs to be handled carefully? Take a look at Great Britain, where muslim immigrants regularly disrupt things with mass protests. Did you know learning about the holocaust is no longer acceptable there, because it offends Islamic students? How about the recent vioence in the North East comitted by illegal immigrants? You may have heard of a movie that came out recently called Waitress. The writer director was killed about a year ago by an illegal immigrant who got into an argument with her, and was afraid he was going to be deported.

[Guest Knorg]

Take a look at Great Britain, where muslim immigrants regularly disrupt things with mass protests.

I must have missed them all... We had one about the Danish cartoons, but that turned out to be a bonus as we got some great macros and photoshops from the pictures.

Oh, and there was a Hindu one against that play...

Did you know learning about the holocaust is no longer acceptable there, because it offends Islamic students?

Who told you that? And were their knuckles resting on the floor?

[foeofthelance]

Who told you that? And were their knuckles resting on the floor?

Really? Tends to come up quite a bit in the States, with plenty of articles and photos running around. Not the actual problems themselves, yet, but stories coming out Europe.

[Guest Knorg]

Really? Tends to come up quite a bit in the States, with plenty of articles and photos running around. Not the actual problems themselves, yet, but stories coming out Europe.

I can assure you that no matter what you've heard, the Holocaust is firmly on the UK national curriculum along with evolution.

Clearly those stories you're getting out there are being exaggerated/made up somewhere along the line because here in Blighty about the only people who'd say that are far righters like the British National Party. And they'd be too busy denying the Holocaust ever happened to bother.

Edit: Though no doubt those pictures of kids not being taught the Holocaust are thrilling stuff.

[xax]

Knorg: I believe foeofthelance is talking about things like this Daily Mail article, but it isn't exactly widespread or limited to Muslims.

[Guest Knorg]

The Daily Mail exists to keep Middle England scared. It is an appalling example of a newspaper, and still retains the legacy of openly supporting Adolph Hitler throughout the 1930s.

I see your blog link rubbishes the article's mis-representation rather well with reference to the original report.

And I was a bit careless in rushing to criticize Malkin, without reading the Daily Mail article carefully enough. Both her statement and my statement were justified by the article, giving Americans unfamiliar with the British press some idea of just how much to trust the Daily Mail.

Indeed.

If that sort of thing is being published in America, there's no wonder that the actual situation here in Britannia is far removed from the cross-atlantic perception.

Edit: And even then, quoting one-unnamed school that had dropped the study of the Holocaust is a bit far from "learning about the holocaust is no longer acceptable there". No doubt there's a few religious schools about the place where you can learn about the Earth being flat or whatever, but it isn't general.

[Solaris]

Don't even get me started with the Mexican immigrations. I know they do the jobs even the blacks won't do anymore, but seriously, why don't they fucking try to learn the English language if they are going to stay here for more then a few weeks?

Seriously, how hard is it for them to at least make the attempt at learning our language but now it's like everyone has to cowtow to them by putting up Spanish words on almost everything around.

Why not tell them if they want to work here in the States, learn our language or go back home and stay put?

We are acceptive of you, but some of us older members of the States don't understand your native language would it not be too hard for you to learn a little of our language?

We learn your language so when we visit your country we speak your language so we can communicate a little with you. Why can't you do the same here?

Beth

[Guest AzaleaWood]

As someone who emmigrated to an English speaking country, I think you under estimate the complexity of your own language. Yes, people should make an effort to learn the language, but it's not as if you can pop a CD in your player and five hours later you know the language. It can take years, especially if one originally speaks a language that is very different from English.

Yes, I put the effort in and learned English. Yes, I immigrated legally but not to America, thank god, for it seems alot of people there see any immigrant as a threat.

I know very little of your immigration laws, but it seems that something is amiss there, on both sides. If it's easier to cross a border illegally and find work than it is to get a visa, it says a lot.

I don't know what can be done to fix it, but I think general complaining about the "dirty immigrant that stole your job" isn't helping anyone.

[Solaris]

If they showed that they are making the attempt, I would be more then welcoming to give them a visa to remain here.

The more attempts at learning the country's main language English by those who are coming here to live and work will probably make them more acceptable to getting visas and work permits.

I want people to come here and live but also make the attempt at learning our language at least a few words would be nice and who knows they may find a person who will assist them in learn more.

Beth

[Guest AzaleaWood]

I have a question for anyone who may know. Are there programs when one wants to emmigrate to America so that one can learn English? I know some countries do this, and it would be incredibly useful if that is the major issue.

[EveKnight75]

Solaris: Wow. You certainly hate non-anglophone immigrants.

I think I can add my two cents to the language debate, seeing as how I speak 6 different languages and only two of them happen to be a familiar tongue to me now. That, and I've lived in a non-anglophone country starting off with only rudimentary knowledge of the working language.

It's fucking hard to learn a new language. Sure, you can pick up a few phrases before moving to a new area, but that's not going to get you by. Every immigrant learns a language to the best of his/her ability, but it's often not enough.

It also depends on your teachers. If you learn English in a non-English speaking country, chances are that your instructors weren't native speakers. If you didn't learn from a native speaker, you're going to have a weird accent, mess up your grammar constantly, and use certain words/phrases inappropriately. And don't give me that media source bullshit - media is a homework assignment, not an actual lesson.

When a person uses their bad English to communicate with a person like you, they'd give up pretty quickly. It takes a lot of guts to make the attempt; but when a native speaker shoots you down or derides you for not getting it right the first time or mixing English with another language because you don't know the right word for every term, it shakes you up badly and you're even more afraid to try again. The final result - you don't end up learning because your self-esteem on that front has been shot to hell.

It has nothing to do with refusing to learn the local language. No one starts out that stubborn. It's people like you that drive immigrants away from the country and give the rest of us Americans a nasty stereotype to battle whenever we end up going to another country.

Do me a favor - move to a country where you have no knowledge of the language, see how fast you can pick up the language and how the natives treat you during the process, then get back to me. Cause contrary to what they shove down your throat, not every country automatically teaches their people the oh-so-wonderful language known as American English.

I do believe that a person living in a country should pick up the working language eventually. I do believe that we need to exercise patience with them while they try to learn. But how the hell are we displaying any patience or openness if we refuse to meet them half-way on the matter? If everyone fobbed off the responsibility of learning a bit about the newcomer's background onto someone else, there'd be no one left to help the newcomer in the end.

In fact, any American worth their salt ought to learn about the newcomer's background. America exists because it borrowed from every other culture in existence and integrated it into their own. By not doing so, you do the country and its foundation a huge disservice.

*The Mexicans were here first since the majority of them are technically part Aboriginal* (especially the illegal immigrants) and the Spaniards discovered America far before the English did. American English is actually a mish-mash of several other languages with British English as a base, so everyone's bound to know at least one word of it (inadvertently and to their favor). It's just a matter of how useful said word is.

*I realize that the statement is historically and geographically incorrect, but it works as a good defense for the Mexicans nonetheless by hitting close to the truth*

AzaleaWood: The United States has ESL programs, especially in large cities with dense immigrant populations. Unfortunately, they're not that effective if you already know the very basics of the language. I haven't heard of any program where you can learn a language before moving to a certain country. However, if the country you plan to emigrate to communicates in a major language (English, French, Spanish, Arabic, etc.), you may be able to find a school or program in your current country that will help you learn some of the language before you emigrate.

[Guest AzaleaWood]

Thank you, Eve. I've already been through the immigration process, and the process of learning English. I was just wondering if there were programs avalible in the USA.

And you are absolutely right about what it is like when you first move to a country where the major spoken language is not your own. It takes a lot of courage to do that, and it is much harder than most people think. Let me give you an example. (I don't know if this will work, but we will give it a shot). For the first 14 years of my life, this was my language.

Если вы думаете, то легко выучить язык от скреста вы должны быть идиотом.

Then, we left for the UK and I not only had to learn another language, but an whole new alphabet.

For everyone that complains about immigrants not learning English. Let's drop you in the middle of Андреа́поль (the town in which I grew up) for a while and see how you do.

[EveKnight75]

Forgive me if I get this wrong.

Russian?

It looks Russian, but there are other languages which use a similar alphabet.

The name of the town you gave is located near the western border in Russia, so it could be Belarusian.

I don't really know any Russian so I'm working with a little bit of searching and wild guesses.

All I can say is that I don't plan on visiting your old town anytime soon, and for a good reason. It took me 5 weeks to learn the Bengali alphabet (it's a clearer version of Sanskrit and it has few characters). So I guess it must be relatively easy in the grand scheme of languages. So is Arabic if you use a really big font.

But Cyrillic seems out of my league at the moment.

[Solaris]

I don't hate ethenic immigrants, Eve. I never said that in my post. If they do not want to learn the language of their new country they live in, that's the problem because everyone wants to bend over backwards and make their lives easier when really they should make the attempt to learn even if it is a little.

That has to be Russian.

Basically speaking: If you think, then easy to learn language from the scratch you must be the idiot.

Я знаю немногую.

I know a touch of Russian because I have a friend who is Russian who immigrated here knowing few words, but she learned at one of the schools in Chicago and kept on learning her new language of English as she came here on a student visa, she wants to remain here so she's learning so she can be a productiive member of her new country.

She's also when she first came here 18 years old and now 24 years of age.

Guess what, she's going for her citizenship test next month. I hope she passes her test.

Beth

[Guest AzaleaWood]

Good luck to your friend, Solaris. I wish her the best.

And yes, it is Russian. I've been in London now for 13 years, and, as I'm sure you've noticed, I'm fluent in English now. Your translation was pretty good too.

The point I was trying to make, though was, how much do you think that little bit of Russian would help you in that first little while? Beleive me, it isn't helpful at all because one of two things happen. Either 1) You screw it up and, as Eve pointed out, your self esteem is slowly worn away, or 2) if you do manage to say something correctly, people think you know the langauge and if you don't understand the response, you're buggered anyway.

Anyway, once again, good luck to your friend, Solaris. I wish her all the best!

[EveKnight75]

I don't hate ethenic immigrants, Eve. I never said that in my post. If they do not want to learn the language of their new country they live in, that's the problem because everyone wants to bend over backwards and make their lives easier when really they should make the attempt to learn even if it is a little.

Your posts indicated that you did indeed have severe contempt for "ethnic" immigrants. The rest of that paragraph is just you re-iterating the same thing you have in every other post and points that I've already adressed and Azalea has backed up.

That has to be Russian.

Basically speaking: If you think, then easy to learn language from the scratch you must be the idiot.

Did you just call me an idiot? Because if you did, you'd better apologize for it AND re-read my post because you didn't seem to grasp it the first time. I know it's not easy to learn a language from scratch - I've done it three times so far. With two of them, I at least had a base to work with.

ETA: Thanks to AzaleaWood, comment has been struck out.

Я знаю немногую.

I know a touch of Russian because I have a friend who is Russian who immigrated here knowing few words, but she learned at one of the schools in Chicago and kept on learning her new language of English as she came here on a student visa, she wants to remain here so she's learning so she can be a productiive member of her new country.

She's also when she first came here 18 years old and now 24 years of age.

Guess what, she's going for her citizenship test next month. I hope she passes her test.

Beth

Good luck to your friend on her citizenship test. I'm sure she'll do well. What you just said about learning a little Russian to meet her half-way on things was exactly what I was talking about.

Edited November 21, 2007 by EveKnight75

[Guest AzaleaWood]

Eve, Solaris didn't call you an idiot. She was translating what I had written in my last post. What I had said was "If you think it is easy to learn another language, you're an idiot." I'm sure she didn't mean to insult you.

Russian doesn't translate well directly...

Edited November 21, 2007 by AzaleaWood