Abortion?

[dazzledfirestar]

In my opinion everyone has the right to choose what is best for themselves, no government, no church, no other person has the right to tell you how to live your life.

As someone who was adopted, trust me, its not just the aids babies, or the drug babies or the FAS babies that are hard to place in good homes. A birth mother can take great care of herself and the baby can still have problems. Diabetes, Epilipse, CP, and any other number of diseases that can occur also affect placement. I was lucky. I'm diabetic (have been since birth too) and my parents still took me. How many sick kids aren't that lucky.

Now don't read this as "abort any fetus that might be sick" Believe me, I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that all the choices that are available right now have downsides. Each woman, or rather couple (fathers shouldn't be left out of any decision, if at all possible) has to be allowed their choice.

[Aserenity]

do we really want abortion to become our new birth control?

making abortion legal would allow more people to think exactly what the media puts out for them: Sex is unimportant

[Aserenity]

In my opinion everyone has the right to choose what is best for themselves, no government, no church, no other person has the right to tell you how to live your life.

you're right but what next...legallizing murder? intentional suicide? where do you draw the line? when does it stop?

people need to realize their mistakes and have to live with the consequences...not erase what they just did

in 2004 about 1,293,000 abortions were preformed...what if one of those babies was the next genius...one of the next brillant inventors...the one that finds a cure for cancer

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

do we really want abortion to become our new birth control?

making abortion legal would allow more people to think exactly what the media puts out for them: Sex is unimportant

To begin with, Abortion IS legal. At least, in the US. And you're right, it shouldn't be used as day to day birth control like a few woman do. However, abortion isn't going to trivalize sex. Nor is making it and contraceptives illegal going to make people believe that sex is the end all be all of a relationship.

Perhaps this is a direct result to my upbringing, but I've come to believe that sex and love are two very differant things. Givng birth and love are also two very things. Love can thrive without sex or children. Sex and children can thrive without love. However, it's when you put these things together that you're making something truly special.

Sex, in the long run, is great but ultimatly unnecessary. Sex is about procreation and recreation. However, in this day and age, it's also about trust and responsibility.

Abortion, IMHO, should only be used as a last resort after all other forms of birth control don't work. That, and if it becomes a life threatening situation.

in 2004 about 1,293,000 abortions were preformed...what if one of those babies was the next genius...one of the next brillant inventors...the one that finds a cure for cancer

Yeah, they could also have been the next Hitler or Charles Manson. Or, you know, me. Scary, scary thought people.

You can sit here and go on and on about what ifs, but seriously, the world is full of them. The world is also full of people. Lots, and lots of people. Too many fucking people. 6 billion too many. We are over populated. So, while this may sound cold to you, we can very well do with that 1,293,000 less people in the world.

[bookworm51485]

you're right but what next...legallizing murder? intentional suicide? where do you draw the line? when does it stop?

people need to realize their mistakes and have to live with the consequences...not erase what they just did

in 2004 about 1,293,000 abortions were preformed...what if one of those babies was the next genius...one of the next brillant inventors...the one that finds a cure for cancer

Do you really feel that you are so All-Knowing and All-Important that you can make that kind of decision for millions of women? Because I don't. I know I'm not all-knowing. I don't know the circumstances that leads of each decision and that's why I say that abortion should be legal so each woman can make her own personal decision.

You saying that abortion should be made illegal because a few women use it as "birth control", in your words, is like saying that alcohol should be made illegal because a percentage chooses to abuse it. Or that driving should be made illegal, because some people speed and cause accidents. Do you really feel that the circumstances of your life should be dictated by the motives (or the perceived motives) of a few?

And then there's the fact that abortion, in many cases, keeps a child from being born into a VERY undesirable situation. Bad parents, abusive parents, abusive situations, neglect, the foster care system, orphanages, physical and/or mental disorders, etc. Your whole statement implies that your looking at the situation from a very limited POV and not at all the circumstances that could lead a person to making the decision to have an abortion.

[Aserenity]

I beileve in no killing period...no death penality no abortion....no distroying other people's chances of having a wonderful life.

*sigh* I love life

[bookworm51485]

I beileve in no killing period...no death penality no abortion....no distroying other people's chances of having a wonderful life.

*sigh* I love life

You sound like you live in La-La Land.

[Squallfan]

I think its a womans choice, but I could never abort a child myself. I have two children, but have had my tubes tied since then. Though, I did know this girl who had three abortions. It was almost like she thought that was a form of birth control, instead of getting on the pill, or having the guy wear a damn rubber. Now that bitch pissed me off.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

Pro Choice is pure hypocracy. I don't care if a baby dies or not but if a woman has the choice to kill her child then the rest of us should be able to kill who ever we want as well. Either legalize murder as a whole or not, enough of this "If its head doesn't leave the vagina then its ok" BS.

I'd agree with you 'cept the legal (not layman) definition of murder doesn't apply here. First, abortion is legal and secondly, it's the unlawful killing of a person.

Now from that standpoint, the arguing of personhood and born persons protected by law is another piece of the abortion debate pie.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

As for the right to abortion, it is, and should always be, the woman's choice.  Until modern science can figure out a way to transfer a fetus into another human or other means of gestation, then the woman should have complete and utter say over what happens to or goes on inside her own body.

Um... but here comes another question, what IF the person who is pregnant does NOT want that genetic material that grew into a fetus to be transferred to another body?

This is kind of like a person who puts their child up for adoption so they don't have to see it again ever. Yet the possiblity that it comes to see them remains.

Edit: Bold, my doing.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

storyjunkie@: I am not afraid to say this. I sneer at weaklings. Those who are afraid of raising a child. What is life for? Is it a selfish thing? or is it a thing to share? Sure, its' like one of those "lesser of 2 evils" thread, but letting life thrive can only bring reward. Cutting it off brings only regret.

Umm... I hate to burst your bubble, but there are quite many women who have aborted and feel no shame. Some went on to have children later on and some decided to never have kids-- some got pets.

www.imnotsorry.net

But let's get down to the real reason I am replying shall we?

Afraid of raising a child or is it something else... like health problems, desire to NOT undergo pregnancy, finances, lifestyle (i.e. childfree), age, pregnancy circumstances...?

Side note- I wonder if anyone's written a story where a male somehow got pregnancy and decided to abort?

[Guest echtrae]

Speaking for this particular male. I'm fairly certain that I would, and rather quickly too.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

If you ask me, ANY male who got preganant would abort the thing. All of these mpregs where the male eagerly keeps the baby and raises it are pretty laughable. I don't know if men are smarter than we women or have a lower pain tolerance, but I figure most if not all of them would happily end any unnatural pregnancy they ended up having.

That's what I figure in fiction and in real life... but then as a person who enjoys a good mpreg story (because payback makes me giddy), I know quite a few straight and gay men that actually would keep it. Which scares me... fiction should stay in fiction.

I just don't get many of the pro-life men I've debated with about abortion-- the second I bring up "what if you got pregnant via being a woman or just unnatural circumstances of mpreg theories?", they instantly turn pro-choice for themselves...

[StoryJunkie]

storyjunkie@: I am not afraid to say this. I sneer at weaklings. Those who are afraid of raising a child. What is life for? Is it a selfish thing? or is it a thing to share? Sure, its' like one of those "lesser of 2 evils" thread, but letting life thrive can only bring reward. Cutting it off brings only regret.

Umm... I hate to burst your bubble, but there are quite many women who have aborted and feel no shame. Some went on to have children later on and some decided to never have kids-- some got pets.

www.imnotsorry.net

But let's get down to the real reason I am replying shall we?

Afraid of raising a child or is it something else... like health problems, desire to NOT undergo pregnancy, finances, lifestyle (i.e. childfree), age, pregnancy circumstances...?

Side note- I wonder if anyone's written a story where a male somehow got pregnancy and decided to abort?

well, I said alot of stuff, but for the most part, I won't recant. I live on this planet too, and I do as I please, I think as I please, I say as I please. Yes, so my foot is in my mouth alot but some things need to be said. Unsaid things are worse, I think.

I'm not in everyone's head, so I can't tell if they regret or not, but the human memory is a selective thing.

To live with honor is the best. I can say that not because I've led a life of honor, but because it is the ideal that we all ought to strive for, and not think it is something unattainable.

I do not condemn anyone faced with this decision and deciding "no, I can't bear this child". On the contrary, I bring them into my arms and kiss them. The burdens we bear in this life are not always visible, but thank God we don't have to bear them alone.

[dazzledfirestar]

I just don't get many of the pro-life men I've debated with about abortion-- the second I bring up "what if you got pregnant via being a woman or just unnatural circumstances of mpreg theories?", they instantly turn pro-choice for themselves...

I've noticed that some (and note right now I'm saying some, not all, so don't jump down my throat that you or your friends aren't like that) of the men that hold that opinion really aren't basing their opinion on the issue itself, but on control. They may have a religious reason to want that control, or a political one. But the issue isn't really applied to their lives directly, especially if they follow the christian doctrine that alot of them seem to hide behind. After all, if you are following Christian doctorine you aren't having pre-marital sex are you? So you surely won't be knocking someone up then, will you? It's easy to say something is wrong or evil if you don't have any personal connection to it.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

All right, I have a habit of debating in a thread at Gaia so I want to bring up a point from a question that was asked over there on the subject of making abortion illegal.

How do you know if abortion will be a choice even if it was illegal?

Here is my point: the choice won't go away because some legislator and his buddies take away SAFE ones. A woman, if desparate or scared enough, will go through any means to get RID of a fetus if it is her choice to do so.

[StoryJunkie]

well, a person can be charged with attempted murder, and all the rest. If it can be proven, that is. I mean, in "Clue" there's the candlestick,the rope, the lead pipe, the gun. Everyone's out to get mr body, right? all the players are guilty, not innocent.

Believe it or not, there are people in jail for attempted murder.

However, I don't think women should be slammed in jail for this sort of thing. It should be a private doctor/patient decision, not a public one. This begs the question, do our bodies belong to us, or are they in some way connected to society? We share most of our dna with humanity after all. Is not the gene pool a human resource?

(God, that's got to be the weirdest thought I've ever had, aside from that tentacle fantasy I had after reading Conan the Barbarian issue #14)

No, no. The weirdest thought I had was the loop-hole I discovered in the Molecular Theory while stoned out of my mind on Red Thread many years ago. I'm amazed that I even remembered that!

Okay, the "Clue" analogy was admittedly far-fetched.

Crimes, especially ones of passion surface sooner or later. That's all.

[Guest echtrae]

It would seem to me that if a woman does not have the perogative to choose whether to have an abortion or not. Then her body does not belong to her, it belongs to the state. If that is true, then none of us belong to ourselves. We are simply resources to be used and abused by the state. Subject to the whims of someone who will refer to you as nothing more than a number.

So I then must ask the question. Do you trust your government to make choices that are truly in your best interest?

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

Do you trust your government to make choices that are truly in your best interest?

If my best interest was to protect my body against one of the many side affects or disfigurements of pregnancy or my lifestyle against fitting in another human being, then I wouldn't trust them-- not with the childcare industry (which makes millions off of everything for a good pregnancy and raising kids) and the Religious Right influencing the goverment.

[StoryJunkie]

I was thinking more along the lines of world domination.

But yeah, it's not a perfect world. However, that being said, do you think those closest to you are uncaring or lost to you once you engage in something dishonorable, (not just abortion), or do you trust them to save you from yourself, to tell you that you and yours are welcome, no matter what? I think that has a great influence on the state of your mind when you go to make a life-changing decision.

[Guest echtrae]

You make a good point SJ, but there is a world of difference between people who know you and are actively concerned about what's best for you, and a government that doesn't know you from Adam/Eve.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

I was thinking more along the lines of world domination.

But yeah, it's not a perfect world. However, that being said, do you think those closest to you are uncaring or lost to you once you engage in something dishonorable, (not just abortion), or do you trust them to save you from yourself, to tell you that you and yours are welcome, no matter what? I think that has a great influence on the state of your mind when you go to make a life-changing decision.

I'm afraid I don't follow you friend.... ...and I'm not liking this dishonarable/honorable label here either.

The people truly closest to me wouldn't tamper with me for their interests in something that has no more sentience than a rock. That said, if the option of abortion was illegal and the government actively enforced it, they aren't acting in my best interests by leaving me that other option.

If I were 100% pro-life personal, pro-life political then I wouldn't care about the option of a safe abortion being open to other women (even in the case of rape, incest, possible death of mother or fetal deformity).

But I'm pro-choice personal, pro-choice political and therefore will fight to preserve this option.

[StoryJunkie]

It would seem to me that if a woman does not have the perogative to choose whether to have an abortion or not. Then her body does not belong to her, it belongs to the state. If that is true, then none of us belong to ourselves. We are simply resources to be used and abused by the state. Subject to the whims of someone who will refer to you as nothing more than a number.

So I then must ask the question. Do you trust your government to make choices that are truly in your best interest?

Why would you think the government right away? As soon as a child is born, you are indeed, at its beck and call. In the ideal world, slaves to each other.

I'm afraid I don't follow you friend....  ...and I'm not liking this dishonarable/honorable label here either.

The people truly closest to me wouldn't tamper with me for their interests in something that has no more sentience than a rock. That said, if the option of abortion was illegal and the government actively enforced it, they aren't acting in my best interests by leaving me that other option.

If I were 100% pro-life personal, pro-life political then I wouldn't care about the option of a safe abortion being open to other women (even in the case of rape, incest, possible death of mother or fetal deformity).

But I'm pro-choice personal, pro-choice political and therefore will fight to preserve this option.

And no, I do not consider abortion honorable. They do not give out prizes for "best abortionist of the year" or "best abortion performed". This is something without accolades. Perhaps what you speak of is not a simple subject like abortion, but a broader one, involving free will vs obedience to a higher morality.

Everything else that was said, belongs to your own heart, and one I would not interfere with, since, and this is for all, you have given this every consideration using the faculties that were given you, and also considering the atmosphere of society, and the availablity of every kind of luxury. It is probably the lesser of two evils when you think of what the people did in the before time. I do not judge you, and I cannot judge them. I cannot even judge myself. But I will insist that labelling it "legal" does not make it right.

[Guest echtrae]

Why would you think the government right away?  As soon as a child is born, you are indeed, at its beck and call.  In the ideal world, slaves to each other.

Why would I think the government, because the question was regarding the legality of the abortion. Not the morality of it. I try to avoid discussing morality with others, mainly because they get so caught up in their own views that they seem either unable or unwilling to see another's view.

But  I will insist that labelling it "legal" does not make it right.

Neither does making something illegal.

[Guest Masatar_Torlyl]

Yeah, these are the same bastards who used to involuntarily sterilize poor black women in the south during the sixties and seventies.

I never heard this before, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. I always knew when these people talked about saving all the precious babies and there was a shortage for people wanting to adopt, they were only talking about one demographic in a racial tone....