Abortion?

[Guest Agaib]

By the very words of Kang from the Simpsons

Kang: "Abortions for All!"

Crowd: "Boo!"

Kang: "Fine, No Abortions for Anyone!"

Crowd: "Boo!"

Kang: "Umm... Abortions for Some... Miniature American Flags for Others!"

Crowd: *Cheers*

It may seem stupid but I think it makes quite a statement. There is no way that one side will "convince" the other. Similarly there is no one solution that will satisfy everyone. Any solutions that try to go in between will really only satisfy the idiots. Unfortunately, that is the only real truth in the issue.

[bookworm51485]

I think what most pro-lifers and even others who are ambivalent forget is that pro-choice means just that, Choice. The right for each person to choose what they feel is right for themselves based on their personal circumstances. Whether it means that they have an abortion, keep their child, give it up for adoption, or whatever other options there might be. We don't feel it's our right to decide for others. It is possible to be pro-choice, but be pro-life personally. My mother for instance is against abortion but she is pro-choice. And in the end I think that is the best solution for all because everybody makes their own personal choices, but most pro-lifers truly believe that they should have a say in how others live their lives and that is completely absurd.

[StoryJunkie]

can you truthfully tell me that you felt so strongly about this before it became such a hot issue?

It's been an issue since Roe and Wade. It was an issue when girls died in the back street offices from inept procedures. It's always been an issue.

Life isn't static.

I never said I was Pro life.

I never said I was pro-choice.

I said it was a crime.

If it is legal, which it already is where I am, that makes it no less a crime.

Just my opinion.

My reasons for it not being legal are actually monetary ones.

What country allows their own citizens to die? Think of the tax dollars they're loosing.

I am a cold bitch, guys

I am definitly not perfect, but I honour my ancestors who came to this country to escape persecution, and I will uphold their beliefs. Their ghosts will haunt me if I dishonor them with my words.

There is no way that one side will "convince" the other. Similarly there is no one solution that will satisfy everyone. Any solutions that try to go in between will really only satisfy the idiots. Unfortunately, that is the only real truth in the issue.

I don't know Agaib. I'm always in search of the truth. I think that one day, humanity will be of one heart and one mind. It is probably what we are trying to evolve into, and I think that issues such as this are important. It's good to hash things out. After all, we DO have physical bodies subject to decay. Our time is limited. But I sense that something is coming. That's why I think that life isn't static.

I think what most pro-lifers and even others who are ambivalent forget is that pro-choice means just that, Choice.

Bookworm, you make a good point, but as you may or may not have read in my previous post, it's good to have some clarity. No one here is a cretin. We all understand what Pro-choice means.

but most pro-lifers truly believe that they should have a say in how others live their lives and that is completely absurd.

Who are "most"? I haven't met any. The vocal ones are a handful and hey, its a free country and they can say it.

[Guest Melody Fate]

I would apologize for the "sneer" thing, but I already apologized for it.

I don't expect you to apologize for it, if that's truly the way you feel. Everyone has their sneer points. Thats what makes us human.

And if a child born from you in spite of it all has half your writing talent, I would have to say:  "Job well done"

But you see, that's how you feel. How do you know that the child would feel the same way? I might have writing talent, but honestly, I would give it up and never write another word if it meant I could throw out my medication and be a normal person.

My parents certainly think that having me was "worth it" despite that I'm messed up. How I feel about it is another matter entirely. However, I didn't have a choice, did I?

People who are prolife seem to think that every aborted fetus would have become a child who would so love to be alive. They think that women who have abortions are aborting future leaders and those who will cure the worlds ills. No one ever stops to think that someone might have aborted a future serial killer or someone who'd grow up to be a terrorist. Every aborted fetus is a potential savior.

Not true. Not everyone is grateful to be alive. Not everyone thinks that their life is so worth it. Not everyone who decides not to have an abortion is a saint either.

As for advice like:  "you should never bear children because you may die"  I say to them:  "you should never walk across the street for a bus may hit you and you may die."

I've never heard that argument and the only way I could see it flying is if the mother was terminally ill. Otherwise, yeah, life is a crapshoot and if that's the case, then no one should have babies.

If you're talking about me, it's not that I might die. It's more that the odds are good my child would have at least some, if not all of my "problems." Judging the quality of my life and my contributions to the world, I can easily see where the world would be exactly the same, or slightly better had I never been born. As for me personally? If I could go back in time to before I was born, I would tell my mother to have an abortion, without any hesitation. I won't bring a child into the world who could very well end up feeling the same way I do. And, even if a "miracle" happened and my child did not have my problems, that child would still have to deal with an irresponsible, moody, ill-tempered mother who will damage this child emotionally and most likely would damage the child physically. Personally? I have no desire to be the next Andrea Yates.

I am much saddened by the bloodshed on this world, abortion or otherwise. 

Here's the problem with making abortion illegal... people will still have abortions, they'll just be criminals. Would you rather see women having to put themselves into the hands of backalley butchers? Would you rather see safe abortions being the right of only the rich? Because that's how it used to be.

I would like to point out, for clarity, especially for a  subject like this that labelling people, if it is done, should be done without rancour.  For instance, saying that you are "Pro-choice" implies that the "other side" is NOT pro-choice.  This is a falsehood.  Saying that you are "Pro-life" implies that the other side its NOT pro-life, and this also is false.  The proper labels should be as such:  pro-abortion and anti-abortion.  Any other suggestions?

But pro-life is not pro-choice, that's the whole point. Most prolifers are proud as hell to be prolifers and would never allow themselves to be called pro-choice. Most prolifers consider anyone who's prochoice to be proabortion.

If you believe that it's not your place to decide what someome else should do, then you are prochoice. Even if you would never dream of having an abortion yourself. Even if you would do everything under the sun to convince someone who was pregnant not to have an abortion, as long as at the end, you recognized that it was still an option, you are prochoice.

My aunt used to volunteer on a church hotline for pregnant women (she died, or else she'd still be doing it.) The hotline was designed to educate women that abortion wasn't necessary, that there were other options. She spent much of her time driving young, pregnant girls to the doctors, or allowing them to live in her house because their parents kicked them out. However, she also believed that in the long run, while she found the idea of abortion repulsive, it wasn't her right to tell another woman what to do. She was prochoice.

I'm not too keen on the term "prolife" myself, because the more fanatical branch seems to forget about the life of the mother. But, that's the term they have given themselves.

Proabortion would be someone who not only believes in it for themselves, but believes in it for others too. And I've met people like that. People who believe that if you cannot support a child financially, physically, and emotionally, you should be forced by law, to have an abortion. I refuse to be associated with that side of the issue too.

I would never, ever, tell anyone to have an abortion, even though I would have one myself if I got pregnant. It's not my place. Should one of my friends or my friend's children got pregnant, I would tell them that I'd be willing to help them in any way. I would fight verbally and physically anyone who tried to push abortion on them. No one should ever push that choice on anyone. But, I ultimately believe it is a choice and I can't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.

If you are prolife, you believe abortion should be made illegal. It's pretty cut and dry. If you believe abortion is a blanket solution for any unwanted or undesirable pregnancy, then you're proabortion. But if you believe that ultimately, the choice lies in the hands of the woman as for what to do, even if her choice goes against what you would personally do, then you're prochoice. Hence, the term.

[Guest Melody Fate]

Kang: "Umm... Abortions for Some... Miniature American Flags for Others!"

I so want to see that on a bumpersticker!

[StoryJunkie]

An orchid requires more care than a marigold.

They are both, however, flowers.

[bookworm51485]

Bookworm, you make a good point, but as you may or may not have read in my previous post, it's good to have some clarity.  No one here is a cretin.  We all understand what Pro-choice means.

I swear you are just purposely misunderstanding me . What I said is "I think what most pro-lifers and even others who are ambivalent forget is that pro-choice means just that, Choice." That says Most, not all. So while you might recognize the Choice in the term pro-choice, there are many that don't.

Who are "most"?  I haven't met any.  The vocal ones are a handful and hey, its a free country and they can say it.

There are plenty, believe me and they don't just say things. Just by virtue of the fact that they are trying to get laws to remove our choices shows that they are doing more than talking.

Also they act on their beliefs in a way that is negative and hurtful to others. For an extreme example, there was the guy who decided to go assassinate doctors that performed abortions. I think the fact that a lot of doctors hide the fact that they perform abortions shows that many pro-lifers are more than just talk. They stand outside abortion clinics and heckle and harass the women going inside.

For a slightly less extreme example, I'll give you a story that I saw on a Pro-choice/Pro-life Board. I don't remember exact details so I'm probably messing up the story a bit and I can't find it again, but basically a group of pro-lifers set up an office alongside a Planned Parenthood. They were basically waiting for people who mistakenly went into their office instead of where they meant to go. The story was basically about what happened to one girl. She went with her parents are mistakenly went into the wrong building, then the people got all her personal information and set up and appointment for her to have an abortion at the correct Planned Parenthood office. From that point on, she started getting harrassed constantly. Phone calls, people in her school, out of the streets, her parents were also being harassed. Then when she went in, nobody at Planned Parenthood knew anything about an appointment so they realized their mistake and what had happened. And it seems like this is a scam that's been happening in many different places all over the country.

Pro-lifers are definitely more than just talk as you seem to believe.

An orchid requires more care than a marigold.

They are both, however, flowers.

What is that supposed to mean?

[StoryJunkie]

I don't know, they would probably say something like all the blood already spilled by abortionists justifies this. I don't know. ARguements are good for both sides.

This issue, can't you see, is dividing, not unitiing. If I was a national leader, I'd be concerned. There's got to be a solution to this unrest. In Wade vs Roe, the man was suing the woman claiming that the child she bore was his, and he wanted it if she did not. Since that time, men's "rights" have been pushed aside. In instances where the woman is obviously unfit as a parent, she isoften chosen as the main care-giver in seperation and divorce settlements by virtue of being a woman. The men have limited access.

but really, it comes down to individual cases and this causes me concern when lawyers debate the issue without taking this into account. I don't think the law applies to everyone. I don't think that jails should be filled with women either. However, I also believe that the precedent shouldn't be set by minorities when it comes to the health of a nation.

History teaches us that erosion of morals is the first symptom of fall and decay of a nation. Does this not concern you? For the sake of future generations, can you not shove down your emotion and understand that for them, we leave them a world full of sharp words and sharp objects, where hate grows easily and good is choked out by short-sightedness?

As for the orchid, you must understand that message is something that on occasion comes out of me for no odd reason. It has nothing to do with abortion.

[bookworm51485]

I'm sorry but the majority just made no sense. It's like your just rambling now.

[Guest SweetMisery1]

I do need to disagree with Junkie's comment about pro-lifers being anit-abortion and pro-choice being pro-abortion.

This statement tells me that you still don't get what we believe in, although you continue to tell us its redundent to state it.

Being pro-choice does not mean standing on a street corner and telling people to get abortions. It means that we acknowledge the fact that not everyone is fit to have a child nor does everyone want one. We just want the option open. I firmly believe that in as many cases as possible, the American government should take a step back andallow as many freedoms possible

[StoryJunkie]

I actually posed it in honor of my creative writing professor, who pointed it out. "Pro-choice" implies the "other guys" are "anti-choice". "Pro-life" implies the "other guys" are "Anti-life". Neither is true, and people still get caught up in the clever stupidity of it all. The labels are inflammatory.

I am neither pro-life, nor pro-choice. This is something in the realm of doctor/patient confidentiality. The legality of it is moot, since it is legal where I am.

A child knows that something like this is wrong. But people do it. That doesnt' make it right. The world goes on. In the end, it's all about money.

(I hope bookworm didn't get too confused. She's not used to my rambling ways.)

(whispers: "Bookworm, I'm an old woman and my brain's not what it used to be.") It's good for young women to be passionate about things. It's how we find the words to express ourselves.

[bookworm51485]

I actually posed it in honor of my creative writing professor, who pointed it out. "Pro-choice" implies the "other guys" are "anti-choice". "Pro-life" implies the "other guys" are "Anti-life". Neither is true, and people still get caught up in the clever stupidity of it all.

Pro-Life and Pro-choice are labels, like Liberals and Independents, that represent people who have a certain belief. So that whole statement is crap.

I am neither pro-life, nor pro-choice. This is something in the realm of doctor/patient confidentiality. The legality of it is moot, since it is legal where I am.

In my opinion, unless your unsure, you are either pro-life or pro-choice. The legality or illegality of it is moot like you said, but not in the way you say. Your beliefs are your beliefs whether the law agrees with you or not. Like me, I'm anti-death penalty. Obviously it's legal since it's still being done but that doesn't change what I believe. Your condemning women who've had abortions, then saying I'm not pro-life or pro-choice, is just a cop out in my opinion.

In the end, it's all about money.

What does that have to do with abortion?

I would also like to point out that birth-control is out there. Abortions can be prevented. Those who feel unfit to have children should have their tubes tied. It probably costs just as much, and I know a lot of women who have done so.

Actually nothing is 100% fool proof. I've heard of cases where birth-control fails for whatever reason and women still get pregnant. And on the issue of getting your tubes tired and an abortion costing about the same, that's just absurd. I know abortions aren't cheap but surgery A LOT more expensive. So there are a lot of women who can't afford surgery. Not only that, on the pro-choice/pro-life board I follow, there have been people who've gotten pregnant while taking birth control. There was actually one who got pregnant while on birth control, using a condom with spermaticide. There were also people who've had kids after having their tubes tied. So as far I can tell the only way of ensuring that you don't get pregnant is full removal. And how many poor people can afford that. Abortions are definitely more accessible.

[StoryJunkie]

I am defenseless against your popular belief. You are absolutely correct in all that you say. Abortion is the best and abortionists should rule the world. You have won this debate. Your laurels will arrive in the mail, and SweetMisery will send them. The tide hath overcome me, and the voice of reason has been drowned out by insults. Time for the vodka.

When you were young and your heart was an open book

You used to say, "Live and let live",

(you know ya did you know ya did you know ya did)

But in this ever changing world in which we live in

Won't you give it a cry?

Say "Live and Let Die"

[Guest SweetMisery1]

... well thanks...

I honestly like to debate. Will I ever insult someone on their beliefs...no. The whole reason I created this topic was because I wanted to see the other side. I wanted some all encompassing logic that could explain to me why the freedom of choice should be limited. My age group is ill informed about alot of things. I'm on the cusp of the age allowed here so hearing from others give me a fresh and not so in-your-face look at this

[StoryJunkie]

Hm. All-encompassing logic, eh? (really, I'm not THAT smart!)

Did you like the song?

No, really, at this moment. Kahlua and vodka look good. Thank god for Jamacians(?) and Slavs! (How the hell did that drink happen?)

Alright, I'll admit it.

I'm God. I disguised myself as a 40 something woman who likes to write about romantic albiet somewhat smutty things, and I say that abortion is wrong!

To prove to you that I am God, one of the first things I did when I came to this site was to cause it to go down. In other words, I put my thumb on it. And when I leave, the site will once again resume its regular course.

[Guest Agaib]

(How the hell did that drink happen?)

In someone's basement. In the dark. When no one was looking.

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Firstly, while I can't verify my ability to raise a child, if I were to become pregnant I would do all in my power to keep it. I couldn't make the choice to have an abortion, and I chouldn't put it up for adoption. Any child of mine would be a most wanted and loved one, if left a little wanting in the material department.

That said, I firmly believe that abortion should be kept legal and even made an amendment if only this reason and this reason alone: WOMEN DIED WHEN IT WAS ILLEGAL. DIED people! Wire hangers, alchole poisoning, knitting needles, "street doctors" and all levels of hell. Pregnancy is a desperate situation for a woman who does not want her child. A desperate person does desperate things, especially when there's no other way.

On top of that, for those who talk about giving up the child for adoption, that is just hell on it's own. While there's a chance the child will instantly land in a loving nurishing home with great people, that's only a chance. A hollow, hollow chance. The foster care system is in shambles along with the adoption system. Child services is a fucking joke and spits in the face of all it stands for. So many children get lost in the system, lost in the world because they were unwanted. Yes, there are plenty of wonderful people who would kill to have a child, there are also plenty of fucked up people who would get to that child first if only for a monthly check.

"Every child a wanted child."

Think about that.

[bookworm51485]

Yes, there are plenty of wonderful people who would kill to have a child, there are also plenty of fucked up people who would get to that child first if only for a monthly check.

I know people who do exactly that. And while some do do it for the extra money but also take the responsibility seriously some just do it solely for the money and don't give a crap about the kids. I know a woman who rotated her way through foster kids not doing much of anything for them, one actually ended up getting pregnant at 15 and added her own kid to the mess that is Child Services.

And to StoryJunkie, I really wish you'd stop spouting off nonsense and "sarcasm".

[Guest SweetMisery1]

Here's something my dad always says, and i agree with him.

You need a license to drive a car, get married, fly and plane...but you don't need one to become a parent.

Think about it

[Guest Soulsearcher]

{wades into the opinion swamp}

Alrighty. Here's my take. Personally, this topic, like so many serious topics today can't be black and white. It's grey. As human's we don't like grey. We like to have well defined sides and know that we're either on this side or this side and that's the way it is.

Now, the problem is we live in a very large country made up of lots of people who all have different opinions and very passionate feelings about said opinions. We also have a very hard time setting our emotions aside and taking a step back to look at the topic. Those dang emotions are always getting in the way. That said ...

On the one side, there are those opposed to abortion. They are opposed because life is precious to them and they feel passionately that everyone be given a chance to experience life, no matter who they are, who they will become, or the experiences they will have. Everyone has their place on this Earth and leaves a stamp of their presence. Even serial killers may influence people in positive ways. We just don't know the effect someone will have on society. The death of Kennedy, while a tragedy brought about drastic changes in our society. The problem with this argument is there are people out there who genuinely had no choice. Sure we can say, why didn't you use birth control? Why weren't you more careful? A woman who's raped is not given a choice and the medications they are given (the morning after pill) don't always work. Sometimes, that rape was done by a family member and the child runs the risk of being seriously mentally or physically handicapped, or even still-born. Then, there are the women who can't have children because it is a threat to their life. Our birth control meathods are not 100%. Sometimes, even women who have had their tubes tied or men who've had a vassectomy are still able to create a child. It happens. We spend so much time worrying about the unborn child, we forget there is already a living breathing human being carrying the child. We're so protective of the unborn, why aren't we as protective of the mother who's probably scared and nervous and confused.

On the other hand there are those who believe it is a choice. They believe they have the right to abort, so they don't use birth control the way they should. When they get pregnant they go have an abortion, even though they're perfectly healthy women who have the financial means of raising a child. It's their RIGHT and they'll use it. It doesn't matter how old the child is. The child is in their body.

There is abuse of the issue on both sides, neither wanting to see the points the other has to make. Very legitimate points. Personally, I believe until we have a completely fool-proof form of brithcontrol, we must keep abortion legal. And even once that fool-proof form is available, it still must remain legal for all those women who are raped, or other extenuating circumstances. I don't agree with women who use abortion as a form of birth control. That is murder in my mind.

Just a little factoid. In countries where abortion has remained legal the abortion rates are LOWER than in countries where abortion is illegal. Usually, countries who legalize abortion make sure the women are educated about the decision they are making and ensure it is regulated properly. Countries where it is illegal ... well, it's hard to legallize the back allies, isn't it?

This isn't an easy topic as there really isn't one good answer. As with most difficult topics, compromise seems the only way to truly come to some agreement. Not everyone will get what they want, that's true, but then again, isn't that what living in a large country like this is all about? You may not always get what you want, but sometimes that's better for the entire country.

And that's my two cents ... er quarter, on that topic. ^^;;;

[Guest chibi4president]

You need a license to drive a car, get married, fly and plane...but you don't need one to become a parent. 

That's true, and I wish it weren't. I think (though I know it will never happen) that parenting licenses should be required, and given only to people who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and financially ready to have children. Having children can be both the greatest joy and the greatest mistake for anyone. Kids require a lot of attention, care, love, effort, money, etc. Especially money! (If they pick up something in Wal-Mart, you MUST buy it. Or they will kick, scream, and cry the whole way home. Not to mention their school supplies, new back-to-school outfits, babysitters, diapers, checkups, etc.) Not everyone should have them. I know people who've had babies because they're cute. ("It'll be easy! It's just changing diapers and rocking them to sleep! Think of all the compliments me and my baby will get! What's more, it'll bring me and my boyfriend closer together!!") Then five months into the pregnancy, they want to have an abortion because they figure out, much too late, that it isn't as easy as they thought it would be. Those kind of people should NOT be allowed near an abortion clinic. They are abusing their right to choose. They may have had the right to have an abortion, but they also had access to free birth control and other contraceptives and information about pregnancy and child-rearing. They chose to get pregnant without thinking and should be made to deal with the consequences.

HOWEVER, if the mother's or child's health/life is at stake, or the child has a severe disability that will keep him from living a full, rewarding life, or the mother was raped, or if she realizes she can't provide a good home for the child, the abortion option should be open to her, and she should be able to get a safe and legal one. I live in a conservative area and if anyone I knew saw this and knew it was me, they'd be calling me a baby-killer. I don't believe that a handful of pro-lifers (many of them Christian fundamentalists) shoud be able to decide what all women in America do with their bodies.

I would have mentioned adoption for that last scenario, but I remember what pixagi said about the system, and combining that with my own knowledge of nightmarish foster homes and abusive caseworkers, that may not be a really good option.

But this is simply chibi's opinion. It is based on my experience. I realize that the abortion debate has many facets and that there could be a mountain of information floating around out there that could make me look like a misinformed drabbler.

[StoryJunkie]

You need a license to drive a car, get married, fly and plane...but you don't need one to become a parent.

There's also an African saying: "It takes an entire village to raise a child"

We live in cruel times.

[Guest SweetMisery1]

"They believe they have the right to abort, so they don't use birth control the way they should."

Just because we believe it should be availible, doens't mean we abuse it.

[StoryJunkie]

If money was a pre-requisite to having children, I would never have started a family until I was 40. One way or other, jobs have been lost and gained...my sister and her husband lived on rice and zucchini for an entire summer, ....bad money decisions, unexpected expenses, they've all been a monkey on my back until these past five years. This is the first real breathing space my husband & I have had. Not to mention his folks were so poor, his brother's bassinet was a shoe-box.

And you know what, 80% of the world doesn't even have savings. Being poor in THIS society? A crime, I guess.

[Guest Melody Fate]

There's also an African saying:  "It takes an entire village to raise a child"

We live in cruel times.

My biggest problem with that saying is that it's usually spouted to me by parents who think me and everyone around me should ignore their child's ill behavior. Since it takes a village, I shouldn't mind that little Britney wants to throw peas at me and mine, or scream for five hours straight.

If we're all supposed to be so responsible for all children, even if they aren't ours, then I should also have the right to tell a child she's not allowed to pelt me with food. But that never seems to come up. That "village" philosophy seems only to work one way, that everyone is supposed to give to parents, be it money, time, or tollerance for their ill acting kids. Meanwhile, the parents of these "village children" don't seem to have to do anything, just have the kids. If the kid acts up, it's the fault of the "village."

These are people who blame the media, who blame the internet, who blame everything when their kid gets into trouble. They're also the type of people who put a lable on their kids like, "Indigo" and say, "Nooo, my child isn't a brat, he/she is just INDIGO and therefore has to be treated SPESHUL."