Abortion?

[Guest SweetMisery1]

I personally belive it should be... I'll wait for some votes to share my reasons

[Guest Psychostorm]

Pro Choice is pure hypocracy. I don't care if a baby dies or not but if a woman has the choice to kill her child then the rest of us should be able to kill who ever we want as well. Either legalize murder as a whole or not, enough of this "If its head doesn't leave the vagina then its ok" BS.

[Guest Illihanna]

Women SHOULD have the right to choose if she wants the baby or not as long as the baby is still dependent on her womb (which if roughly around three months)

We have enough problems in this country and if a woman does not want the baby and the father's not taking it to court then why should we bother her? Do you plan on caring for this child for the next 18 years? There is more to a baby then just having it pop out of the vagina.. so far, I don't see pro-life supporters dealing with those issues besides adoption which is a very biased system.

[Guest SweetMisery1]

I think waaaaaaaaay too many people are misinformed.

1. Abortion is currently and has been legal for awhile

2. The government should not (but is) be ruled by religion.

3. Most of the people who abort children were raped/can not support a child/don't have a job/ complications or have SOME reason for aborting it

I think it is a mother's choice. This whole head out of vagina thing is crap. any baby over 500g cannot be aborted.

We have enough children in the system currently from families that didn't want them. Do we want that many more children starving, poor, undereducated, unloced, abused, raped?

[Guest Illihanna]

I am not sure to whom your replying some of the points too but I am aware of Abortion being legal, hence the protesting and debates for banning it.

Normally, a baby around 500g is about three months and the reason they say it cannot be aborted is because the baby has a chance to live outside the womb; sounds impossible but it is true, a baby with the right equipment can live without the need of the mother's womb.

I'd like to disagree with the 'Head out of vagina' theory because it has a ring of truth. Have you ever seen records of an unborn baby which did not include being part of the mother's profile? What I am saying is the government does not pay life insurance for an unborn child nor do hospitals keep records for a child not yet born unless it is under the mother's profile...so the theory is far from bull no matter how we view 'life'

My problem with Pro-lifers is the fact they are not thinking of the other childern already born and are in need of care and a good roof over their heads.Now, I 'm not saying all pro-life supporters think this way, but they certainly do come off in that manner.

[Guest suzanne_2006]

I am glad to see this subject openly discussed.

I believe that no matter what, the woman has the right to choose.

[Guest SweetMisery1]

I personally think that one is limiting and the other isn't...Pro-choice doesn't mean a massive baby slaughter...it means it will stay the way it is now.

Pro-life forces others into Catholic beliefs...

What does everyone think about pharmisists inflicting their beliefs on others by not giving morning after pills?

[polywolly]

What does everyone think about pharmisists inflicting their beliefs on others by not giving morning after pills?

I think it is akin to refusing service at restaurants to obese persons.

As for the right to abortion, it is, and should always be, the woman's choice. Until modern science can figure out a way to transfer a fetus into another human or other means of gestation, then the woman should have complete and utter say over what happens to or goes on inside her own body.

Let us concern ourselves with the sick, the starving, and the woefully under educated children before we rally around those who have yet to set foot upon this Earth.

[Guest Agaib]

I agree with poly on this issue. The woman should stay informed of all of her choices involving childbirth, but in the end it should be the possible mother's choice. There are more important things in the world to bicker about and try to solve, some problems are way overblown.

[bookworm51485]

Pro Choice is pure hypocracy. I don't care if a baby dies or not but if a woman has the choice to kill her child then the rest of us should be able to kill who ever we want as well. Either legalize murder as a whole or not, enough of this "If its head doesn't leave the vagina then its ok" BS.

You know what's hypocrisy, Ultra conservative pro-lifers who are majorly anti-abortion but are also pro-death penalty. A life is a life whether you it's worth it or not.

But you know what I think most pro-lifers forget or just choose to ignore, while their beliefs are limited to you do what we think you should do, pro-choicers believe a woman should do what's right for her personally whether that is to have an abortion, keep the baby, or put it up for adoption.

One thing I have to say though, pro-lifers preach about adoption. Preach and preach and preach and preach, yet there are thousands and thousands of kids out there waiting to be adopted, in group homes or being bounced around to different foster homes. Why don't you people who are into forcing a woman to have a child even if it is unwanted adopt these children and give them homes? I doubt most of you would be willing to do that. So until the day your going to go and bring all of these kids into your homes and take care of them, you need to shut the hell up and let people do what they feel is right for themselves.

And btw there is a point where they stop performing abortions unless there is a health reason connected to it. I'm not positive but I think it's sometime before the end of the second trimester.

[bookworm51485]

What does everyone think about pharmisists inflicting their beliefs on others by not giving morning after pills?

It's ridiculous and in my opinion if someone is found to be doing this they should be fired and stripped of their license. In my opinion, it's like a doctor refusing to treat a critically injured patient because they're black

[Guest SweetMisery1]

yea... I was watching 60min... and here's what I found out

Apparently the FDA had an extremely one sided vote to make the pill over the counter

Then the leader recieved a request for further investigation and suddenly the pill's vote didn't matter

Apparently some people are trying to make the pill over the counter for 17 and above (completely excluding the women who probably need it the most)

The biggest fear is that women won't go see their Gynachologist

I have one word to say...morons

[Guest Dafmeister]

We've had some comments about the hypocrisy of being pro-choice. I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of being pro-life. Anti-abortion campaigners are determined to protect the right to life of an unborn child, but more than willing to risk the life of the mother. Even with the best of modern medicine, women can and do die in childbirth. Miscarriage can be fatal. Caesarean section carries all the risks of any surgery, be it haemorrhaging, adverse anaesthesia reaction or post-op infection. I don't see how anyone who claims to respect life can deny a woman the right to decide when to place her life at risk in this way.

For the record, I advocate allowing abortion right up until birth.

[Guest SweetMisery1]

well right up until birth can be dangerous and at that point, I think its a little far. The current 500g limit allows some restrictions.

[StoryJunkie]

I think its a crime.

Looks as if mine was the only "no" vote. However, I find this does not daunt me in the least. I think its a crime against women, I think its a crime against men, I think its a crime against the spirit. I think its a crime against humanity. I think its the worst sort of crime because you pay someone to do it. I think its a crime against the future. I think its pure arrogance to think that you are more important than those who are coming, those who would use your body for fodder. That is all our bodies are. Fodder for the next generation.

I am not afraid to say this. I sneer at weaklings. Those who are afraid of raising a child. What is life for? Is it a selfish thing? or is it a thing to share? Sure, its' like one of those "lesser of 2 evils" thread, but letting life thrive can only bring reward. Cutting it off brings only regret.

[bookworm51485]

I think its a crime.

Looks as if mine was the only "no" vote. However, I find this does not daunt me in the least. I think its a crime against women, I think its a crime against men, I think its a crime against the spirit. I think its a crime against humanity. I think its the worst sort of crime because you pay someone to do it. I think its a crime against the future. I think its pure arrogance to think that you are more important than those who are coming, those who would use your body for fodder. That is all our bodies are. Fodder for the next generation.

I am not afraid to say this. I sneer at weaklings. Those who are afraid of raising a child. What is life for? Is it a selfish thing? or is it a thing to share? Sure, its' like one of those "lesser of 2 evils" thread, but letting life thrive can only bring reward. Cutting it off brings only regret.

And it's people like you with your attitude that make me so amazingly sick. You have a lot of nerve to believe that you have to right to tell other people what to do with themselves. I sneer at you, because you obviously have no idea of the harsh realities of life and the fact that in many instances these children that you would force to be born are often better off. To force someone to bring a child into an extremely unfit situation is completely absurd. And I swear if I hear someone say adoption I will scream. You pro-lifers preach adoption like it's the ultimate solution. Ugh, the ignorance. Whatever that's all I have to say because really no matter what I say you will continue to believe that you are so special that you should be able to tell other people what they should do with their own lives and their own bodies.

[StoryJunkie]

bite me, worm

I will now go read one of your fics

EDIT: er, your author's name wouldn't happen to be bookwormchick, would it?

[bookworm51485]

You should be careful with the Bite me's. I used to say that all the time until I ran into someone who actually did bite me, not very fun

[StoryJunkie]

I said it thinking that bookworms didn't have much of one....pain is my enemy.

And I do apologize for the "sneer" comment. I just got a little carried away. I'm in love with myself. I absolutely do not condemn anyone who's had an abortion or contemplating one. We all go through that. However, this being a legal debate, it is irrevocably a crime. Because it sure as hell isn't funny or nice.

[Guest Agaib]

you know StoryJunkie, I may not really agree with you. But I admire one thing, you do a good job of making sure this doesnt become a pissing contest. ^^

[StoryJunkie]

Well, I don't fool myself into thinking that my opinion can hold back the tide. Perhaps I am a fool to stand infront of it.

Does the world notice fools?

[Guest Agaib]

I dont know about the world but I sure do.

[Guest Melody Fate]

I am not afraid to say this.  I sneer at weaklings.  Those who are afraid of raising a child.  What is life for?  Is it a selfish thing?  or is it a thing to share?  Sure, its' like one of those "lesser of 2 evils" thread, but letting life thrive can only bring reward.  Cutting it off brings only regret.

Then you may sneer at me.

I will not say if I have or have not had an abortion, but I will say that if I were to become pregnant, I would have an abortion.

I am not a fit woman to raise a child. I have various physical and mental problems. I am short-tempered, easily irritated, and given to fits of depression so deep that I've considered suicide, only to spare those I love and who love me, the pain of seeing me in this state. When I am on a downward spiral, the only thing that actually keeps me from killing myself is knowing that it will hurt the ones I love. When I'm not in the middle of depression, I often have to deal with axiety attacks so severe that I have to leave public situations.

I had one this morning in the grocery store. No reason, no tip off. Just my brain seized and I went into "fight or flight" mode. I ended up running out of the store, leaving a cart full of food in the middle of the line. That's another store I won't go into for a couple years, because I'm too mortified.

I am on several medications for these problems. Most of my medications, I would have to go off of, if I became pregant, or risk seriously damaging the baby. About the only way for me to be able to get through the pregnancy without damaging myself (and thus the baby) is if I was put on 24/7 watch. And I'll bet I'd spend at least a third of that time being physically restrained.

Yes, I have had people tell me that even with all of that going against me, I still would have absolutely no right to have an abortion. That my life means nothing in comparison to having a child. (quite similar to your "all that matters is the next generation" argument) Okay, I'll bite. Maybe I am less important than what my womb can spit out...however, there is a very good chance considering my family history, that I will pass on several, if not all of my conditions.

So, I will raise another child to live this life. To be on medication that has so many side effects that I have to take batches of other medications to counteract them. I will condem a child to a life of being barely able to function unless they are taking massive drugs.

Maybe a cure will come out by the time this child became of age. Maybe not.

Is it selfish for me to rather condem myself to hell (as the prolifers are so quick to bring up) than to bring a child into a life that could very well be a living hell?

Is it wrong for me to have times when I really, really hate my mother for having me, when she has the same problems I have? That I wish to God she had gotten an abortion? At least with my mother, I can somewhat forgive her, because while her mother was a nutball, less was known about these disorders and the general theory was still that they were "all in your head," and if raised correctly, your child could avoid them. In my case though, I know darn well that I could pass on what I have.

I will not do it.

I will not go off my medication.

I will not condem another human being to my life.

I will not support the idea of bringing any child into this world that will not be going to a loving home where they are wanted. (I'm not saying 'expected." If all babies were planned, there would be far fewer people.)

I don't think adoption is necessarily the answer. Adoption is the perfect solution for the perfect babies. The babies of one race born with no health problems, or health problems that won't show up until later in life.

Very few people want to adopt children who are imperfect. Maybe because the world has progressed, healthy children of mixed race are easier to find homes for, but I'm talking about the sick ones, the ones born with aids, the ones born addicted to drugs, the ones with fetal alcohol syndrome. And, speaking from experience, there are a lot of people who do adopt these children only because some states (like mine) will give them a monthly check to raise them. In other words, these kids are extra income. Others I've known do it because they want the world to kiss their asses for being so self-sacrificing.

I'm not saying all adopted parents are like this and I'm not saying all those who adopt the undesirable ones are either, but I've met enough who are like that, so that I'm a little skeptical.

And, before you ask, yes, I've looked into being sterilized. My first issue was that no doctor would perform the proceedure. First it was because I wasn't married. Then, it was because not all marrages make it, so I might remarry a man who would want to have children. The medications I need to make my life liveable were dismissed with handwaves and pats on the head, like for nine months it would be a picnic for me to just go without.

Now I've found the doctor, but our insurance won't cover it. Surprisingly, our insurance will cover the hospital stays, should I get pregnant and have to be locked up so I don't hurt myself or the baby. But, I guess that's the sort-of logic that appeals to the extremely radical prolifers. I am trying to save up to have it done. I figure by the time I've got enough, I'll be going through menopause, so it'll become a moot point. In the meantime, we use four forms of birth control. We can spend more time preping for sex, than we do actually having it.

You say that letting life thrive is rewarding. I say that I don't think I could ever deal with a child saying to me what I said to my mother, "Why could you do this? How could you bring a child into this world knowing that this child could well end up a prisoner of her own mind and body?"

Yes, my case might seem radical, but each pregnancy is it's own set of problems. My sister-in-law would have to go off her epileptic medications if she became pregnant. Fortunately, this problem didn't develop until after she had three kids, so her doctor had no problems with perminant sterilization. No one can know what is going on through someone's head when they find out they are pregnant. No one can offer a blanket solution for every situation, because each one is different.

I'm not saying all of this for sympathy. I am very lucky in some ways, because I have a husband who for some reason I can't figure out, loves me unconditionally and will not give up on me, even though I've asked him to leave me so many times I've lost count. He has an okay job, so I don't have to work (because let me tell you, it's darned hard to get on social security, when one of your phobias is using the phone. Not to mention that laws have changed and while the woman across the street who is illiterate qualifies for Social security, my problems aren't considered severe enough, even though I've got three doctors who say I cannot function in a working environment anymore) We have a roof over our heads, we have a landlord who is sympathetic and doesn't raise the rent. We are very lucky. I know people who don't have a roof over their heads that won't be eating this weekend, because the food kitchen isn't open. I know a woman and her children who live in a car because they have no home.

Yes, I admit, abortion, to those who think that life begins at the moment sperm meets egg, can seem like a cold, harsh, nasty solution.

Unfortunately, it's a cold, hard, nasty world. Until we have paradise, there will be "solutions" to problems that people will find offensive.

However, that doesn't give anyone the right to take judgment, or offer a blanket solution that is less offensive to your sensibilities. If you believe in a God and believe that abortion kills innocent babies, know that these babies will be safe in the arms of God and the "murdering mothers" will have to own up to what they've done on judgment day.

[EDIT: StoryJunkie, I'm not upset with you, nor anyone else who's said anything on this topic. And I do understand that everyone has the right to their own beliefs. I wrote this "novel" of a response because I'm blown away with people who are prolife, but never sat and thought about people who really would make lousy parents or who are on medications that keep them alive, but would hurt the baby, what making abortion illegal would do to them. Yes, if you want to feel that it doesn't matter if I die to give birth, that's fine. But is it right to expect me to bring another child into my world?]

[StoryJunkie]

It looks as if you've carefully analyzed both sides of the situation.

Although I would like to say things like, you never know until you try, I don't think that positive thinking is the simple solution. We all have our struggles.

Psyching yourself out is not the answer either. We are are own worst enemies. There are so many things I would like to say, but my thoughts are never organized. My mother in law was beat up on a daily basis. She brought five children into the world, one a still born, and aborted the sixth. She did not want to take bc and was "very careful" after that.

My dad's mom worked so hard she didn't even menstuate in the summer. My mom's mom was traumatized by the boat ride over and her period stopped for several months, my grandfather was so sure that she was pregnant by another man that he forced her to drink a concoction that ruined her stomach.

The Australian aborigines could not bring in too many children into that harsh environment and devised a totally natural method of bc that just takes a small amount of time every day if you wanted to practice it.

The Romans used to discard live-borns and toss them into the city dump for the wolves, if it was a child they felt they couldn't support. The woman had no say in this. (Mind you, this was a society whose army beheaded every tenth soldier in order to keep everyone in line. Talk about military discipline.)

On the farm it was a seasonal practice to bash kittens and toss their bodies into the river. We are all expendable

I would apologize for the "sneer" thing, but I already apologized for it.

And if a child born from you in spite of it all has half your writing talent, I would have to say: "Job well done"

We cannot put ourselves in the place of God or Fate or whatever you want to call the driving force of this universe. It just doesn't make sense to me. What man has put in woman another man will take out, using surgical steel, as if it were a mere mole. I find that uncomfortably invasive. Two wrongs do not make a right. You can never convince me of it. As for advice like: "you should never bear children because you may die" I say to them: "you should never walk across the street for a bus may hit you and you may die."

I am much saddened by the bloodshed on this world, abortion or otherwise. The saying about "Man's inhumanity to man" is just so true. I wondered, finally why female and male were made in the first place, for although it is pleasurable, as we can all attest, it is also the most painful. Why not be neutrals? The thought that came to me then as I watched the wind tremble the leaves of the aspen is this: "Women are the repository of souls." (Inspite of all the MPreg fantasies out there) and the thought blew me away.

Earth is a temporary place. It is true that this is the "vale of tears". Do your best with what you've got. And no matter how "legalized" it becomes, it is a travesty and a crime. Man can say what he wants in the past, in the present and in the future, but the truth will never change.

EDIT: I would like to point out, for clarity, especially for a subject like this that labelling people, if it is done, should be done without rancour. For instance, saying that you are "Pro-choice" implies that the "other side" is NOT pro-choice. This is a falsehood. Saying that you are "Pro-life" implies that the other side its NOT pro-life, and this also is false. The proper labels should be as such: pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Any other suggestions?

[Guest SweetMisery1]

The Romans used to discard live-borns and toss them into the city dump for the wolves, if it was a child they felt they couldn't support. The woman had no say in this. (Mind you, this was a society whose army beheaded every tenth soldier in order to keep everyone in line. Talk about military discipline.)

Just to clarify... it wasn't because they could afford the children...

normally it was because it was a girl.

My main question is... why is pro-CHOICE so bad? With abortion legal, those who want to abort can and those who do not believe in it may choose not to.

My next question is for Story Junkie or any other pro-lifer..not to be rude... by can you truthfully tell me that you felt so strongly about this before it became such a hot issue?