Here to improve writing skills - or for an ego boost?

[Guest StSE]

Ok, I've seen someone comment that fanfiction writers are NOT publishing here to improve. My answer: They are so WRONG!

How can I support my view on this? Go to a fic that I started: http://anime.adult-fanfiction.org/story.php?no=600045741 Click on the reviews... Yep, like 120+ of them so far.

Now, let me explain why it almost reads like a discussion forum: It's because this story is open to multiple author submissions. So even though I started the plot bunny - I can leave reviews for chapters that are not written by me.

In these reviews you'll see lots of constructive criticism (even directed at, ahem, ME.. **grin**), you'll see people go "Holy crap - you're right. Um, I'll change it!", you'll see people go through specifics scenes/dialogues that they really liked in a particular chapter.... But in all of it - you will see that every author is striving to improve upon their 'miniplot'...

Authors have come to me and I've beta'd their miniplot before it's published. And some authors have begun to work directly with me - since I LOVED their ideas for how the main plot should proceed in the next 200 years!! It has been a wonderful exchange, for both first-time authors, as well as those of us who've written/published almost a million words!

So that's my example, and my argument. Sure, there are authors that aren't here to improve. Just like there are students that go to school without even wanting to graduate... But a far higher percentage DO want to improve!

[MorbidFantasy]

IMO any author who puts a story up on AFF has a little voice in his head telling him that what he has written is worth the time of others to read and enjoy (I'm ignoring trolls and spammers here). Obviously as soon as you hit that post button you open yourself to critical judgement, both good and bad. If you're really that good an author than it will show in the number of hits your piece is getting, as well as the reviews for the pieces.

The very fact that we make our work public gives us the opportunity, whether we like it or not, to recieve feedback from the AFF community. Negative and critical comments obviously are incentives for us to correct flaws and improve out skills, just as positive feedback makes us want to post more and more. Whether you're doing it for the hits, the ratings, the reviews or just to improve your own writing technique, there is always a motive.

My very first review on AFF was less than stellar, criticizing my descriptive language in the sex scenes and the like. Two years and later, I'm looking back and rereading my old works and thinking "damn my writing was n00bish and sucked ass". Which is a good indicator that I've grown and improved since my initial inception into AFF. This is all due to practice and the constructive feedback that my readers have given me over the years.

OP's link was quite an eye opener for me. 50+ chapters and 140+ reviews is no slouch. From my own experience, I can honestly say that the stats don't lie about the quality of a work. One of my first fics, spanning 11 chapters and published in 06, has to date grossed nearly 4400 hits. Comparatively, my newer work, a WIP of similar chapter count, got 17000+, which is pretty definitive proof that the newer work was in some way an improvement over the old one.

The best way to improve yourself is probably to shamelessly ask for reviews. I keep telling my readers that I'm a whore for constructive reviews and suggestions, and they've been very helpful and positive. While at the beginning I asked for reviews mainly just to feel good about myself, now I'm looking for reviews because they are indicators of what I'm doing right or wrong.

[Guest StSE]

OP's link was quite an eye opener for me. 50+ chapters and 140+ reviews is no slouch. From my own experience, I can honestly say that the stats don't lie about the quality of a work. One of my first fics, spanning 11 chapters and published in 06, has to date grossed nearly 4400 hits. Comparatively, my newer work, a WIP of similar chapter count, got 17000+, which is pretty definitive proof that the newer work was in some way an improvement over the old one.

I cannot take full credit. About a dozen chapters are other author submissions (most Beta'd by me in some way). So I'd say only 80 of those reviews are specifically for MY chapters. But the fic is only around one month old - and getting near the 4,000 mark in hits. But the primary value of this fic is that it shows how a good 'plot bunny', started with a good 'precursor' and clear guidlines to follow - can help both old and new authors get inspired and improve.

Now my top fic on fanfic has logged 40,000 hits, approx 250 reviews, 88 'favorited story' and 78 'story alert' - in 5 months. And I'm in the process of rewriting it, since now I feel that it just wasn't 'fleshed out' as much as it needed. But even it's 'bare bones' original form was received very well.

I must say, I am VERY impressed at how long you've been writing!! Kudos!! I've only done this since the end of 2007..

[MorbidFantasy]

Yeah, I've actually been a reader on AFF since 2003, AFF largely supplanting FF after I realized that what I was really looking for in a fiction was good old wank worthy smut and non-con, which is a rarity on FF. I only started writing my own stuff because I got tired of waiting for my favorite authors to update, when some of them have apparently dropped off the map or moved on with their lives and left AFF behind. In any case, writing for AFF is a big outlet for my erotic urges sans real world sex life, second only to my love for doujin mangas and hot celebs.

I hope the day never comes that I'll stop posting on AFF. It's probably inevitable, but as of now the end is far, far away

[Keith Inc.]

IMO any author who puts a story up on AFF has a little voice in his head telling him that what he has written is worth the time of others to read and enjoy.

Not sure if that's true. Look at how many put 'positive reviews only' or 'please be kind' in the summary? Or delete critical reviews?

I think more than a few are not here to improve, want no feedback on their writing except those that agree in the potential of the pairing or the way the writer solved a problem the characters faced in one episode.

[Melrick]

Oh yeah, I've come across more than a few people that haven't been interested in the slightest way in reading proper critiques on their stories, no matter how good and well meaning the critiques are. The ONLY thing these people are interested in is pats on the back and to be told how great they are. Because these people are convinced they're great as it is, so if anyone disagrees with them then they must be idiots that don't know what they're talking about. I have no time for people like that.

[shinigamiinochi]

Also, the amount of reviews and hits you get is NOT directly equivalent to an author's talent. In some cases, it's the exact opposite. I've seen terrible stories get over 30 reviews, 5,000+ hits and incredible stories only get one review and 100 hits. I post because I love writing and I read a lot of fanfiction. The pleasure I get from reading, I hope to give to my fellow fanfic lovers. It's also because I hope to be a novelist one day and the more I practice, the better I get. I know this is true because I read stuff from three years ago and think about how bad it is and realise just how much I've improved, just by writing a constant stream of fanfiction. Of course, I think all of us writers are also doing this for an ego boost. To coin a phrase, humans are ego monsters, we do everything we do to feel good about ourselves. Sure, if I didn't get any reviews, I'd continue to write, but I also admit that I write more frequently, and more energetically, knowing that I will get reviews. I also can't deny that I feel the best about my abilities when I get praise from readers. But, I challenge any author to say that they don't feel great when someone tells them that they love their work. It only becomes a problem when you become the sort of person (the kind that most hate) that will actually hold a story for ransom in order to get more praise. No one likes this author, I've met a few myself, and it's very immature and irresponsible. I've always viewed my fanworks as children. If you're not willing to nurture them and see them through, no matter what, you shouldn't be putting them out there. It's one thing to lose interest in a story, but to actually make the conscience descision to not write, simply because a majority of the people reading aren't saying how good it is, isn't something I can condone. There are still people looking forward to seeing the end of the story, whether they write a review or not. I could never leave a fanfic unfinished, it would eat at me too much.

[Petofsuccubus]

I write here because I want people to love Nessa's exploits just as much as I do. I'm not sure what that falls under in your two category system, but I suppose it's closer to an ego boost.

Did that sound condescending? Sometimes I can't tell; but I didn't intend it to be.

[Guest StSE]

I write here because I want people to love Nessa's exploits just as much as I do. I'm not sure what that falls under in your two category system, but I suppose it's closer to an ego boost.

Did that sound condescending? Sometimes I can't tell; but I didn't intend it to be.

If a reviewer pointed out a very consistent (and obvious) grammatical error on your part within your story - would you:

1. Go back, re-edit the grammatical error out and swear to yourself not to ever make that mistake again?

2. Delete that reveiwer's concrit, feeling that they just don't know what the frag they're talking about. After all, you are perfect and your story is the bomb!

If you answered #1 - then you are here to improve. (and get an ego boost)

If you answered #2 - then you are here simply for an ego boost and will never truly improve upon your basic writing skills. Since frankly, you could care less how good/bad your writing skills are.

[Petofsuccubus]

If a reviewer pointed out a very consistent (and obvious) grammatical error on your part within your story - would you:

1. Go back, re-edit the grammatical error out and swear to yourself not to ever make that mistake again?

2. Delete that reveiwer's concrit, feeling that they just don't know what the frag they're talking about. After all, you are perfect and your story is the bomb!

If you answered #1 - then you are here to improve. (and get an ego boost)

If you answered #2 - then you are here simply for an ego boost and will never truly improve upon your basic writing skills. Since frankly, you could care less how good/bad your writing skills are.

#1, and try to reply somehow with a thank you. Unless the reviewer was being a jackass about it, then #1 with no thank you.

[MorbidFantasy]

even better. If you manage to get someone who likes your work enough to beta/proofread your work, you could save yourself alot of time.

[DodgeSuperBee]

Definitely #1. While there are those who are here for the a$$pats alone, I'll take any free concrit I can get, especially if I am making grammatical errors that will endanger my future as a writer.

I've never used it myself, but I interpret "please be kind" in an author's note to mean the author is particularly nervous about the response to his or her story but isn't opposed to concrit. I see the "pbk" note in a lot of first time authors' stories.

[The Pairing Guy]

I've never used it myself, but I interpret "please be kind" in an author's note to mean the author is particularly nervous about the response to his or her story but isn't opposed to concrit. I see the "pbk" note in a lot of first time authors' stories.

Yeah, those notes really come in a lot of varieties. Sometimes it's just a polite, nervous, "Please don't kill me" thing, and doesn't necessarily mean that they're at all opposed to helpful criticism(though it might). And then there are ones that explicitly say, "If you don't love this story, don't review!" And pretty much everything in between.

[Xenobia]

While praise is certainly a boost to the ego, I publish stories to get feedback because it helps me become a better writer. When people leave comments and tell me what they did or didn't like about a story it helps me perfect my work and avoid mistakes. Other than that, who doesn't like compliments? When I work hard at something and get some recognition for it, my day gets brighter. Constructive criticism? Love it. I've had people compliment a story while also pointing out errors I missed when proofreading, and I'm always thankful for it. I have one beta reader for my originals and zero for fanfiction, so I don't always catch grammar errors and weird phrases.

I just wish people on AFF.net were more vocal. I've gotten a lot of views but few comments lately. Maybe I'm imagining it but it seems to me that five years ago there was a lot more activity as far as reviews went. Sure, half of them weren't helpful ("Love it, write more!") but some of them really did help me clean up my style and write better stories.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Xenobia

[canterro]

Actually, what I don't like the most, huh, even hate, is that I don't get reviews from people who don't like my stories.

Sure, I understand if it's just not the kind of fable you like and despite that fact alone, you have nothing in particular to say to me. That's cool with me.

However, although "I don't like this story" isn't extremely helpful, true, it still says something

All the more, if you don't like my writing for the reason, let's say - I'm too descriptive, too chaotic, I use odd language, I complicate things too much... whatever, I'd love to hear it.

When I compare the hit count and the number of reviews, I can see that for circa 40 people only one gives me their impression. Then I think to myself that 39 out of 40 might not like the story, actually. Sure, maybe the statistics isn't that black, but...

So I keep wandering in the darkness, trying to figure out my weaknesses, and hoping that writing itself can result in enough of improvement.

[Petofsuccubus]

Actually, what I don't like the most, huh, even hate, is that I don't get reviews from people who don't like my stories.

Sure, I understand if it's just not the kind of fable you like and despite that fact alone, you have nothing in particular to say to me. That's cool with me.

However, although "I don't like this story" isn't extremely helpful, true, it still says something

All the more, if you don't like my writing for the reason, let's say - I'm too descriptive, too chaotic, I use odd language, I complicate things too much... whatever, I'd love to hear it.

When I compare the hit count and the number of reviews, I can see that for circa 40 people only one gives me their impression. Then I think to myself that 39 out of 40 might not like the story, actually. Sure, maybe the statistics isn't that black, but...

So I keep wandering in the darkness, trying to figure out my weaknesses, and hoping that writing itself can result in enough of improvement.

You get one out of 40 people to review? And you're complaining? My most viewed (and reviewed) story has reviews from about one in every 600 readers. I'd love to have 1 out of 40 drop a review.

[MorbidFantasy]

You get one out of 40 people to review? And you're complaining? My most viewed (and reviewed) story has reviews from about one in every 600 readers. I'd love to have 1 out of 40 drop a review.

technically when you have 600 hits it doesn't denote 600 readers. Everytime someone visits a chapter of your story you get a hit, so if you had a 50 chapter story and someone read them all you get 50 hits. If the same person chose to go back and read them again that's another 50 hits. Hits only document the number of times your story has been accessed (each individual chapter adding to the count). If you happened to write a story that was really good chances are there is alot of rereading being done. I have 17500 hits on one story with 10+ chapters. So that's 17500 divided by 10 to get 1750 hits for the entire story. Divide that by a conservative estimate that every person who read the story reread it at a future time 10 times and I think only 175 people have read that story. That really puts things in perspective, and is a big wakeup call to me that I'm not nearly as popular as I'd like to think I am.

On reviews. Bad stories either get flames or don't get reviews at all. If someone posted a positive review on your story, you know you've done something right. Even if it is only one review, it's a significant achievement, especially here on AFF with people being so stingy with reviews (I literally begged my readers for reviews, and some of them even mentioned that they only reviewed because I begged XD).

Obviously my math regarding the hits is just my personal estimate. Some stories get read less, some get read more. I have 40 reviews for 17500 hits...that means 1 review for every 438~ hits. Eventually you'll realize that the more hits you get, the worse the ratio between hits/reviews are going to get. I actually think of my hit-count as the true indicator of my story's success. 1 or 2 positive reviews help my ego alot, but it's knowing people are willing to come back for more that really lifts my confidence.

[canterro]

Just to make it clear: I do not complain about the number of reviews.

I love them and I'm very grateful to the readers who let me know their opinions. I feel really lucky as they are my driving force

I'm just pretty sure there's a lot to do to improve my writing. Style, language, story flow, descriptions... I believe that critical reviews are the engine of improvement, together with positive reviews of course (yeah, as a writer I need 'good words' as much as my lungs need air ).

And about a hit count... I wonder how you do that to have a number reaching tens of thousands Maybe a good summary is a key?

I've no idea, really...

[Petofsuccubus]

technically when you have 600 hits it doesn't denote 600 readers. Everytime someone visits a chapter of your story you get a hit, so if you had a 50 chapter story and someone read them all you get 50 hits. If the same person chose to go back and read them again that's another 50 hits. Hits only document the number of times your story has been accessed (each individual chapter adding to the count). If you happened to write a story that was really good chances are there is alot of rereading being done. I have 17500 hits on one story with 10+ chapters. So that's 17500 divided by 10 to get 1750 hits for the entire story. Divide that by a conservative estimate that every person who read the story reread it at a future time 10 times and I think only 175 people have read that story. That really puts things in perspective, and is a big wakeup call to me that I'm not nearly as popular as I'd like to think I am.

On reviews. Bad stories either get flames or don't get reviews at all. If someone posted a positive review on your story, you know you've done something right. Even if it is only one review, it's a significant achievement, especially here on AFF with people being so stingy with reviews (I literally begged my readers for reviews, and some of them even mentioned that they only reviewed because I begged XD).

Obviously my math regarding the hits is just my personal estimate. Some stories get read less, some get read more. I have 40 reviews for 17500 hits...that means 1 review for every 438~ hits. Eventually you'll realize that the more hits you get, the worse the ratio between hits/reviews are going to get. I actually think of my hit-count as the true indicator of my story's success. 1 or 2 positive reviews help my ego alot, but it's knowing people are willing to come back for more that really lifts my confidence.

Like I said before, I really came here just to share this story I had in mind, and to try to see if anyone liked the characters as much as I did. That being said, there are other writers who do appreciate my work, and even though they are few, that's enough to make me happy. I would continue writing even if I didn't get a single positive review, but the ego boost certainly doesn't hurt.

[The Pairing Guy]

Yeah, there are definitely plenty of writers here who are genuinely willing to improve. I'd say most, but I'm not absolutely sure. There are of course some guys just here for the ego boost, and because AFF lets you delete any reviews you get, you can't tell which ones are. Most stories here you see only positive reviews for, but I think for most of them that's because they only got reviews in the first place.

I can't deny that I really like the ego boost, but I always accept the criticism. Even if it's not helpful, like if someone says that a character would act one way and I think he's completely wrong, or if someone wants me to put the characters in a sexual situation that I don't want to write, I like at least knowing what people look for. It's interesting to know what the readers are thinking.

[Guest StSE]

I like how the stat page is broken down on FF a bit better than AFF. I've got a TON of stories published on my account there... And here's some things I've found to be true. (on FF, the author can actually get a breakdown per chapter of hits, as well as 'unique hits')

I've got one story that has 50,000 hits on the first chapter. Then 40,000 on the second... And so on and so on. Last chapter had 500 hits. (Published mid-2008) I did get more reviews on it than any other, but it was 1 per 1500 hits or so.

I've got other stories with only 5,000 hits on the first chapter. But even in chapter 22, I still have 150 hits. This one had some real dedicated readers, the type who left both good and 'you need to improve on....' reviews. It was around 1 per 100 hits.

On FF, I found that past, say, chapter 5 of a story - if your new chapter hits/unique visiters equalled out to almost level chapter-after-chapter. Then it was a darned well-received story!

What REALLY shocks me, is when I decide to use the same unusual 'nickname' for a particular cannon's clone here on my 'AFF only' story ... Which I had incidentally used for the actual cannon back in one of my 'less popular' storylines on FF. And I had two AFF readers/reviewers instantly jump on it and mention that first saga's main OC by name! (oh, and mentioned that I used 'melodic' way TOO MUCH in that early saga of mine... LOL) Now THAT was a REAL EGO boost! (even with the lighthearted concrit!)

[temp_anon]

I'm here for a bit of both actually. I originally ventured on in here for some constructive criticism, hoping that gaining an audience capable of such would boost my ego enough to continue producing. Now, well, there's not much pressure to continue on without someone else. I really should advertise around here more though.

[JCullen]

Personally, I'm here mostly to improve my writing. Though a part of me enjoys knowing that other people are reading my stories and I honestly cant wait to receive reviews (good and bad) because it can only help me grow as a writer.

Edited March 25, 2009 by JCullen

[Supersonic Bitch]

To be perfectly honest, both reasons.

Improving my writing skills is the reason I overdose on stress every fucking time I have a writer's block, feel that I'm practically writing the same scene again, only in another fic, write something terribly clichéd (though I liked writing some kind of fics that I consider as initiation rites... good clichés). And I just love to get feedback which includes constructive criticism.

But... of course there is the ego boost. I am quite sure that I'm not the only one going all "YAY!" when receiving a good review and it certainly boosts my ego. It saves my day