Really? No topics?

[PorkChopExpress86]

Now i'm as open minded as the next deviant on these forums and although I don't enjoy yaoi or have much interest in yuri, i'm fine with those who are into that sort of thing. But there is no one commenting on hetero sexual relationships? That just seems odd to me...

[Guest Savaial]

We're in the middle of a yaoi explosion, I tell you!

For so long men have dominated the porn industry. Women have either been too repressed or too shy or SOMETHING to push thier quirks/kinks/preferences. Now, with Yaoi to press their buttons (pun intended), it's all they seem to prefer.

Women like to read their sex, I think. Women are language oriented. Men like the visual. On a fanfiction site...

Well, I do the math and I find male on male is dominant. And it is cool. I can find good stuff about it. In a relationship where sex is chosen rather than a nod to the biological imperative, male on male is somewhat, dare I say, pure.

But Het is also smokin' if it's done correctly. With het you get added dangers like pregnancy, security and the like. And danger is what makes a person return to a fic. No one wants to read this:

X_________ had no issue with his partner wanting him. He gave in, fucked her and END.

Throw some risk and sexual vitriol in there and WHAM, you have a decent fic.

[PorkChopExpress86]

But even if women are expressing themselves sexually more these days, why write/read about stuff they aren't even a part of? It's like they're just teasing themselves... If fanfiction is based on fantasy, wouldn't they want some kind of fantasy that they could conceivably be part of?

And what makes m/m pure? heterosexual couples don't get together b/c of pheremones being released at specific intervals like many animals do, how is a hetero choice of mate any less "pure"?

I agree that straight sex, when compared to some of the things that make it into various fanfics, is rather mundane but if you're into D/s stuff check out my sailor moon fanfics.

[Guest Zyx]

I wasn't going to make a big deal of the yaoi thing >_>

but why must people be like "yaoi is better" all the fucking time!?

yaoi is not better, it is equal >_>

and if one MUST be best, it's het because it's:

-been perfected by thousands of years of evolution

-nothing to do with sticking your penis in a bag of feces

-not subject to interrelational jealousy. ( "but your dick is bigger than mine :'( " )

Now I realise no one actually said yaoi was better, but I just got pissed off at the notion of yaoi nazis >_>

It's important not to forget that you're a bunch of pervs >_>

(I'm a perv too because I like yuri, but like I said: I'm aware of the fact I'm a perv)

Though gay romance is just fine, all my previous arguments don't apply there.

[PorkChopExpress86]

but why must people be like "yaoi is better" all the fucking time!?

I have the same issue with it. People keep saying, "Yaoi story lines are SOOOO MUCH DEEPER!" and it's like... no... they're not. The depth of a story doesn't relate to what sex the characters are. Besides, the greatest love stories in history have been written about heterosexual couples, romeo and juliet, othello (he DID love desdemona... he just wasn't smart about how he went about it), and the like.

I really think its all about fangirls wanting to be edgy. Porn used to be edgy but then girls started wearing shirts that said "Pornstar" and Ron Jeremy and Jenna Jameson became mainstream celebreties. They couldn't just turn to lesbian stuff b/c that was already acceptable so they jumped on the last thing that might raise eyebrows (before going WAY off the deepend.) I bet in a few years when yaoi is normal you'll see bukkake fangirls trying to push the envelope again. That might not be too bad...

[Guest Zyx]

I bet in a few years when yaoi is normal you'll see bukkake fangirls trying to push the envelope again. That might not be too bad...

I agree xD

No, it sounds nice. But this shit really worries me. People don't have brains.

I could've made that last sentence bold and I could've made it really big but I think this sentence emphasizes it pretty nicely.

[Shinju]

Okay, am I the only one here who thinks "M/M, M/F, F/F, fuck it, it's all good?" I mean, damn, why does everyone gots to be like "M/M is the best because there's more peni!," or "M/F is the best because of the hot, wet pussy pounding!" or, as some guys I know, "F/F is the best because theres no cock!"

[PorkChopExpress86]

Okay, am I the only one here who thinks "M/M, M/F, F/F, fuck it, it's all good?"

yes... i have no interest in m/m whatsoever.

[PorkChopExpress86]

I agree xD

No, it sounds nice. But this shit really worries me. People don't have brains.

I could've made that last sentence bold and I could've made it really big but I think this sentence emphasizes it pretty nicely.

You gotta wonder where it's going to stop... How much more perverse can we get? The japanese and the germans have taken it pretty far and mass marketed porn hasn't really been out there that long. In the 70s it was still a crime to make it in most states so just seeing two people fucking NORMALLY was pretty extreme. Thirty years later we have bukkake and huge gang bangs and no one even blinks. Imagine 30 years from now, bestiality will be on Fox during prime time...

[Guest BelleKeat]

Speaking as a woman and a yaoi fan, I really do disagree with most of what has been said. People are, however, entitled to their own opinions.

When yaoi fans often say that yaoi is better than het because of the "deeper" plotlines...it's because when you look at them, in a way, they are. With heterosexual fanfiction, we find mostly PWP when there's sexual involvement. And whether you do or not, it usually has something or other to do with the man being the savior over the woman in some way or another. It's...overdone.

For me to read most het fanfiction on any given website would be the same as me taking out a textbook and trying to read it. Not because of the subject matter being similar in any way, but just because it is plainly and simply THAT boring to me.

If you really want to know, I don't like most Shakespearan plays either. Not because I don't understand them, but mostly I just simply DON'T like them. In the case of Romeo and Juliet it was just one bungle after another and though I do not doubt that Romeo and Juliet were in love with each other...I feel they were rather stupid people in general. Which should be expected since they were so very young. I'm not really a fan of...people THAT young in any story or play. But, then again, I'm not really here to talk about why or why not Shakespearan plays are good. It's just preference, really.

I don't write or read yaoi just simply to be 'edgy'. I like yaoi. That's why I write it and that's why I read it. I find it far more interesting than most of the heterosexual fanfiction that I find. That is not to say that I don't read about heterosexual fanfics. I do, at times, when I happen to be browsing and find one that is surprisingly interesting. It's just that there is more in the yaoi section that I find interesting.

When done right, yaoi is more of an equal partnership. Yuri could probably have the same said about it, but as personal preference I'm not that fond of yuri.

I can't speak for EVERY female yaoi fan out there. Some of them, maybe even a lot of them, just read and write yaoi because they want to be edgy. I haven't met anybody like that. But, I haven't met all of the people in the world, either. Although, reading or writing anything that the majority of people and RL peers not only dislike but hate doesn't sound like a very edgy thing to be doing.

I'm sorry that you find yaoi and it's fandom to be either irritating, offensive or both. But, what it boils down to is preference. I am allowed to like what I want to like, just like you are allowed to do the same.

Likewise, I'm rather vanilla in what I like to read. I'm not interested in D/s. In fact, I especially hate it in het fics. I don't like dominatrixes and I don't like men asserting their dominance over women. I don't care if it's the way things are "supposed" to be as dictated by law, nature or religion. I don't like it. So, I don't read it. And, I don't write it.

Unfortunately, for as long as Man has had heterosexuality we have also had homosexuality. It has been repressed throughout history, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. It's not a "new" thing that suddenly cropped up in modern times. And it isn't a blight on mankind as a whole, because as it is people are still reproducing at a startling rate and it doesn't look to be slowing down. There are too many people in the world as it is, really.

If you see it as a blight, I'm very sorry. I don't know if you do or not and I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm just simply stating the way I feel.

In fact, if you want to know, just as many of the het fans are complaining about the yaoi fans...so are the yaoi fans complaining about the het fans for always picking at them for their preferences. I can't understand why people seem to think everybody else has to change to please them, to be politically or religiously correct and/or to do whatever and all they can to keep from offending anybody else.

If you don't have that many fics in the het sections of websites and if you don't have many topics in forums, that is not the fault of the yaoi fans. That is the fault of the het fans not getting their butts in gear and writing more fics and participating in more forum conversations. I'm sorry, but it is.

Sure, if there wasn't yaoi then everybody would be writing het and yuri. And if no yuri, then...that would leave just het. But, that's not the way things are. I find yaoi lemon fics to be hotter than what I find in het fiction, and as I said before I find the relationships to be more equal, whether the fic has lemon scenes or not. I don't agree that SOMEbody has to be weaker in order to make a good relationship.

In my opinion, somebody having to be weaker to make the relationship good...well that's just a ridiculous notion.

And if you can't find ANY yaoi that you like. That's preference, my dear. If you don't like yaoi...that's just fine with me and should be with everybody else. Yaoi, yuri and het fans alike.

I do realize that a lot of yaoi authors seem to feel the need to make one of the male characters into a girl with a penis. Well...I don't like that either. In fact, I refuse to read fics like that. It's ridiculous, as well. And that is not a true picture of homosexuality. That is just an uninformed yaoi fangirl writing a fic with only the knowledge of stereotypical homosexual relationships that she has found portrayed on television and other forms of media. No research whatsoever has gone into her fic, more than likely.

But, I will also say that there are quite a few homosexual men that write yaoi fanfiction, as well. It's not just women. Anybody can like yaoi. Gay men, straight women, lesbians. I dare say even a straight man secure in his own masculinity could like it. Not that he would have to in order to be secure in his masculinity. It doesn't have to mean someone is an idiot or that someone is just interested in what "the It thing" is today.

Myself, I will read anything that I find passes my very picky standards. I don't read any yaoi fic I can get ahold of just simply because it's yaoi. A lot of subject matter does not appeal to me in ANY sort of fic.

Really, I can't understand why this is such an issue. Perhaps most het fans that frequent this paricular forum aren't posting because they don't want to. And as I've stated earlier, if the strictly het fans want more fics...then write more fics yourselves.

Sitting and complaining about the yaoi fandom is not going to add more fanfiction to any section on any website. It probably won't even generate more traffic on het sections on the forums. At least, not with new topics.

Perhaps, you should encourage friends who just read to actually try their hand at writing? The general excuse is something along the lines of, "I'm no good at writing." Well, a good encouragement would be, "No one starts out perfect." Not the only encouragement, but a good one.

I have written het fiction myself, although long ago when I was still into Gundam Wing (back when I was around the same age as the pilots). Another thing to mention is that most anime I've come into contact with has either mostly women in it or mostly men. Anime such as Gundam Wing and Bleach...well you're just about going to have to expect the yaoi fans to gravitate to those, don't you think? Good looking guys, good action and plot to the storylines for the most part. Likewise, fics that depict mostly women (such as Sailor Moon) would be more likely to run into yuri quite a bit. Not that there is any shortage of het for the fandom. But, it's probably got a lot less yaoi. At least it did the last time I frequented the fandom. Then again...there are the Starlites...which is a definite gender-bender group. Not to mention that within the fandom there is at least one yaoi relationship established within the anime. I'm sure that by now all Sailor Moon fans know that Kunzite and Zoicite were in a relationship. In the Japanese version, that would be the original version, they were BOTH male and still in the relationship. Likewise, Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune were turned into cousins for the English version, yet in the original Japanese version they were lesbian lovers. That doesn't mean you have to like those pairings to enjoy the Sailor Moon fandom. And it doesn't mean you have to like homosexuality or gender bending to like the fandom, either. But, it's there and in quite a few anime it is officially part of the anime with certain characters and pairings. Not to mention that there ARE strictly yaoi anime out there. Ever heard of Ai no Kusabi? Haru wo Daiteita? It would be ridiculous to put Iason with a woman, or even Iwaki-san for that matter and still keep the fic from being AU.

I don't tell anybody what they WILL like or what they SHOULD like. Just because het couples can make babies and all the established religions somebody can think up off the top of their heads say that homosexuality is a sin...does not sway me in the least.

I, myself, am not at all interested in dating anybody. Not men and not women. I don't EVER want to marry and I would rather gouge my eyes out with a spoon than have to not only go through childbirth but then have to spend the better part of my life raising the child or children. That's just me. I know lesbians and gay men who would love the chance to be allowed to marry their lover within the United States and have it actually be recognized as a real marriage in ALL of the US states and would just fall over dead with happiness if they were one day in the financial position to adopt a child with their significant other. I know many heterosexual women who plan to be, or already are, married with at least two children. If not already,then some day.

That's fine with me. If someone has the love, patience...pain tolerance and dedication to do things like that, I say more power to them. I suppose my point with this is just simply that yaoi fans are not evil and sinister. And we are not all idiotic cheerleaders with nothing better to do and nothing more edgy to play with than yaoi.

Why must people stereotype others just simply because they don't like something people do? No one HAS to like yuri, no one HAS to like yaoi and no one HAS to like het.

The world seems to be filled with a lot of people who just want to complain but not do anything about what they're complaining about.

"Yaoi is the most irritating thing to read on the planet and het is taking a backseat to it because of all the followers!" is a common grievance. But, yet, when a lot of these people are asked if they write het themselves, they answer in the negative. When the writers who complain about it are asked if they encourage their friends to write, they answer in the negative or give an excuse such as, "I would, but I don't know any non-writers who are interested in writing" or "I can't seem to interest anyone in it." Well...I'm sorry to say, none of those problems are the yaoi fans' fault or concern.

I realize I've become long-winded and repetative. I just don't understand what the issue is, myself.

If there aren't enough fics, write more...get readers-only friends to try their hand at it, encourage them to keep it up, offer gentle concrit as a new writer can easily be swayed to never write again until they can develop the leathery skin that most writers acquire with time.

If there aren't enough topics in a forum, then encourage het fans that you know to come to the forum and talk. At the very least to participate in topics you have started.

I know that the yaoi fanbase is rather humongous, but there's no reason that the het fanbase can't become bigger than it already is. More people just simply have to participate and/or put more effort into researching the topics they write about. And if you can't find anyone within your own fanbase and simply MUST go to yaoi fans to get more, or just simply good, fanfiction...that isn't the yaoi fans' problem. We have writers in our fandoms. We have quite a lot, as you have stated already.

I'm not even going to get into the "people don't have brains" comment. And those like it. Because, that comment was obviously said by someone who was not using their brain. In my opinion. Not that they don't have one. Just that they were not engaging it at the time of the post. As are most ignorant statements.

I will also say that I haven't seen a fic where the characters compare penis sizes. Not to say that there aren't any. Sadly, I'm sure there are. If I did happen to click a fic that had that occuring, I would immediately hit the browse button and find something less idiotic.

No fandom or genre is perfect. There is no way that anyone can go into any section and find ALL the fics to be perfect. It's all personal preference.

The problems in the het fandom are not the fault of the yaoi fans. That is plain and simple. I am sorry if you find yaoi to be perverse. I don't agree with you that yaoi is anymore perverse than het or yuri just simply because the fanbase is huge or even religion dictates it be so. Or just because people don't like it. I don't like smoking. I don't like drinking. Am I going to get my way if I complain about it and say that alcoholic beverages and tobacco should be completely and totally stopped from entering the United States or even being produced anywhere in the world? Not likely. But, what is likely if I tried that would be that everybody would stare at me before bursting into a raucous round of laughter.

I wouldn't ask people to change just to please me and I would not presume that they're stupid just because they won't or just because their opinions and/or beliefs and practices are different from mine.

I'm sorry if that is offensive, but it's how I feel. And if that is not what you meant, it came off that way to me and I am sorry for misunderstanding.

But, in answer to your wondering about just WHAT is so great about yaoi. Well, I'll reiterate. I feel that it's more of an equal pairing of characters than most het characters make. And, I just plain and simply find it more satisfying to read, whether the fic has lemon or not. I don't get any enjoyment whatsoever from reading yuri. And, only very few het fics turn out to be interesting to my standards of reading. But, then again, no one can speak for ALL yaoi fans. Other than what I've stated, there is nothing special or different about yaoi in comparison to het, or even yuri. At least, nothing that I can think of. It's pretty much just preference. Just like the strictly het fans get something from het that they don't or can't get from yaoi, the same can be said for yaoi fans when it comes to het. It's preference.

This is just my perspective, as one of the people that was being complained about. I do have a brain and I do use it, thank you. And, I do not and have not ever cared about whether something was or was not edgy. It's why I was never popular in school and why I am not popular among most people now. I do what I want simply because I want to do it. I would like yaoi even if the trend was to hate it and it only had very few fans. I don't know about everybody else, but that is how I feel.

And contrary to what some of what I said might sound like, I did not decide to post this just because I wanted to be contrary or just because I wanted to start something. This just my two cents worth that I'm putting in here and I do apologize if I offended anybody.

Especially, Zyx, as I know some of the comments came off as offensive to me and I did specifically mention them. I do not intend offense to you, just that simply I found the comments offensive to me. And I do apologize if I was unnecessarily harsh to you. You are entitled to your own opinions.

And, thank you for your time if anyone chooses to read this the whole way through.

[PorkChopExpress86]

"When yaoi fans often say that yaoi is better than het because of the "deeper" plotlines...it's because when you look at them, in a way, they are. With heterosexual fanfiction, we find mostly PWP when there's sexual involvement. And whether you do or not, it usually has something or other to do with the man being the savior over the woman in some way or another. It's...overdone."

Gross over generalization.

"For me to read most het fanfiction on any given website would be the same as me taking out a textbook and trying to read it. Not because of the subject matter being similar in any way, but just because it is plainly and simply THAT boring to me."

Fair enough, reading yaoi would be the same for me.

"If you really want to know, I don't like most Shakespearan plays either. Not because I don't understand them, but mostly I just simply DON'T like them. In the case of Romeo and Juliet it was just one bungle after another and though I do not doubt that Romeo and Juliet were in love with each other...I feel they were rather stupid people in general. Which should be expected since they were so very young. I'm not really a fan of...people THAT young in any story or play. But, then again, I'm not really here to talk about why or why not Shakespearan plays are good. It's just preference, really."

Well that's all that really needed to be said, you prefer yaoi fanfiction to the immortal bard. Yes, it is a matter of preference, and yours is bad.

"I don't write or read yaoi just simply to be 'edgy'. I like yaoi. That's why I write it and that's why I read it. I find it far more interesting than most of the heterosexual fanfiction that I find. That is not to say that I don't read about heterosexual fanfics. I do, at times, when I happen to be browsing and find one that is surprisingly interesting. It's just that there is more in the yaoi section that I find interesting."

You find it interesting b/c you think it's unique and different, particularly so in light of the fact that you said hetero sexual fics are like text books. If you are going for avant garde, you're trying to be edgy. I win.

"When done right, yaoi is more of an equal partnership. Yuri could probably have the same said about it, but as personal preference I'm not that fond of yuri."

Define "Uke" and "Seme" for me and tell me how many examples you see of it in yaoi fanfiction, no relationship is egalitarian.

"I can't speak for EVERY female yaoi fan out there. Some of them, maybe even a lot of them, just read and write yaoi because they want to be edgy. I haven't met anybody like that. But, I haven't met all of the people in the world, either. Although, reading or writing anything that the majority of people and RL peers not only dislike but hate doesn't sound like a very edgy thing to be doing."

That would be the definition of "edgy", sweetheart.

"I'm sorry that you find yaoi and it's fandom to be either irritating, offensive or both. But, what it boils down to is preference. I am allowed to like what I want to like, just like you are allowed to do the same."

I don't find it offensive and no one said you aren't allowed to enjoy it.

"Likewise, I'm rather vanilla in what I like to read. I'm not interested in D/s. In fact, I especially hate it in het fics. I don't like dominatrixes and I don't like men asserting their dominance over women. I don't care if it's the way things are "supposed" to be as dictated by law, nature or religion. I don't like it. So, I don't read it. And, I don't write it."

Uke and Seme again. Egalitarianism is a myth.

"Unfortunately, for as long as Man has had heterosexuality we have also had homosexuality. It has been repressed throughout history, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. It's not a "new" thing that suddenly cropped up in modern times. And it isn't a blight on mankind as a whole, because as it is people are still reproducing at a startling rate and it doesn't look to be slowing down. There are too many people in the world as it is, really.

If you see it as a blight, I'm very sorry. I don't know if you do or not and I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm just simply stating the way I feel."

You say unfortuantely... we've had homosexuality. I don't see it as a blight, but you seem to. Overpopulation is not the topic of this thread and even if it were, homosexuality wouldn't put a dent in population growth. The ancient Greeks still managed to have babies.

"In fact, if you want to know, just as many of the het fans are complaining about the yaoi fans...so are the yaoi fans complaining about the het fans for always picking at them for their preferences. I can't understand why people seem to think everybody else has to change to please them, to be politically or religiously correct and/or to do whatever and all they can to keep from offending anybody else."

We aren't picking on you. This came up in a forum specificaly labled "Hetero"

"If you don't have that many fics in the het sections of websites and if you don't have many topics in forums, that is not the fault of the yaoi fans. That is the fault of the het fans not getting their butts in gear and writing more fics and participating in more forum conversations. I'm sorry, but it is."

The demographic of this website is 75% female. Yaoi fans are almost exclusively female, so in a way it is your fault.

"Sure, if there wasn't yaoi then everybody would be writing het and yuri. And if no yuri, then...that would leave just het. But, that's not the way things are. I find yaoi lemon fics to be hotter than what I find in het fiction, and as I said before I find the relationships to be more equal, whether the fic has lemon scenes or not. I don't agree that SOMEbody has to be weaker in order to make a good relationship."

U/S. This is getting repetitve.

"In my opinion, somebody having to be weaker to make the relationship good...well that's just a ridiculous notion.

And if you can't find ANY yaoi that you like. That's preference, my dear. If you don't like yaoi...that's just fine with me and should be with everybody else. Yaoi, yuri and het fans alike."

It is fine with me.

"I do realize that a lot of yaoi authors seem to feel the need to make one of the male characters into a girl with a penis. Well...I don't like that either. In fact, I refuse to read fics like that. It's ridiculous, as well. And that is not a true picture of homosexuality. That is just an uninformed yaoi fangirl writing a fic with only the knowledge of stereotypical homosexual relationships that she has found portrayed on television and other forms of media. No research whatsoever has gone into her fic, more than likely."

This is the ironclad law of yaoi fandom. women can't do research into it b/c they aren't gay men and gay men wont fuck them.

"The men in yaoi have often been compared to the "lesbians" in porn for straight men, there for the titillation but about as realistic as unicorns. "

[http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=3&STORY_ID=4057&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1]

"But, I will also say that there are quite a few homosexual men that write yaoi fanfiction, as well. It's not just women. Anybody can like yaoi. Gay men, straight women, lesbians. I dare say even a straight man secure in his own masculinity could like it. Not that he would have to in order to be secure in his masculinity. It doesn't have to mean someone is an idiot or that someone is just interested in what "the It thing" is today."

Anyone can read whatever donner's their blitzen. But he fact is yaoi IS the "it" thing for heterosexual females just like anime/manga is the "it" thing for americans.

"Myself, I will read anything that I find passes my very picky standards. I don't read any yaoi fic I can get ahold of just simply because it's yaoi. A lot of subject matter does not appeal to me in ANY sort of fic."

Myself included, subject matter like yaoi.

"Really, I can't understand why this is such an issue. Perhaps most het fans that frequent this paricular forum aren't posting because they don't want to. And as I've stated earlier, if the strictly het fans want more fics...then write more fics yourselves."

Says the person who's written twice as much as the rest of the thread combined.

"Sitting and complaining about the yaoi fandom is not going to add more fanfiction to any section on any website. It probably won't even generate more traffic on het sections on the forums. At least, not with new topics."

I started this new topic.

"Perhaps, you should encourage friends who just read to actually try their hand at writing? The general excuse is something along the lines of, "I'm no good at writing." Well, a good encouragement would be, "No one starts out perfect." Not the only encouragement, but a good one."

I'm not here to give out "participant" trophies. If someone wants to write they will, if not, they wont.

"I have written het fiction myself, although long ago when I was still into Gundam Wing (back when I was around the same age as the pilots). Another thing to mention is that most anime I've come into contact with has either mostly women in it or mostly men. Anime such as Gundam Wing and Bleach...well you're just about going to have to expect the yaoi fans to gravitate to those, don't you think? Good looking guys, good action and plot to the storylines for the most part. Likewise, fics that depict mostly women (such as Sailor Moon) would be more likely to run into yuri quite a bit. Not that there is any shortage of het for the fandom. But, it's probably got a lot less yaoi. At least it did the last time I frequented the fandom. Then again...there are the Starlites...which is a definite gender-bender group. Not to mention that within the fandom there is at least one yaoi relationship established within the anime. I'm sure that by now all Sailor Moon fans know that Kunzite and Zoicite were in a relationship. In the Japanese version, that would be the original version, they were BOTH male and still in the relationship. Likewise, Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune were turned into cousins for the English version, yet in the original Japanese version they were lesbian lovers. That doesn't mean you have to like those pairings to enjoy the Sailor Moon fandom. And it doesn't mean you have to like homosexuality or gender bending to like the fandom, either. But, it's there and in quite a few anime it is officially part of the anime with certain characters and pairings. Not to mention that there ARE strictly yaoi anime out there. Ever heard of Ai no Kusabi? Haru wo Daiteita? It would be ridiculous to put Iason with a woman, or even Iwaki-san for that matter and still keep the fic from being AU."

I never liked Gundam Wing so I can't comment there. Bleach has a pretty good split of male/female characters. I write exculsively for Sailor Moon right now and there is very little yuri. Neptune and Uranus are two of my favorite characters in the show. I wrote one scene of them together and i found it very difficult and uninteresting for me personaly. There is plenty of yaoi, it doesn't bother me. But time and time again i've heard of yaoi FANS complaining about yaoi writers pairing people together who would never be in the same room, let alone fuck. Most het pairings i've come across seem at least marginally plausible.

"I don't tell anybody what they WILL like or what they SHOULD like. Just because het couples can make babies and all the established religions somebody can think up off the top of their heads say that homosexuality is a sin...does not sway me in the least. "

I'm very anti-organized religion, particularly the monotheistic ones who condem homosexuality. I don't care where you shake your itty bits or who you shake them at, as long as it's consenting.

"I, myself, am not at all interested in dating anybody. Not men and not women. I don't EVER want to marry and I would rather gouge my eyes out with a spoon than have to not only go through childbirth but then have to spend the better part of my life raising the child or children. That's just me. I know lesbians and gay men who would love the chance to be allowed to marry their lover within the United States and have it actually be recognized as a real marriage in ALL of the US states and would just fall over dead with happiness if they were one day in the financial position to adopt a child with their significant other. I know many heterosexual women who plan to be, or already are, married with at least two children. If not already,then some day."

That's your choice.

"That's fine with me. If someone has the love, patience...pain tolerance and dedication to do things like that, I say more power to them. I suppose my point with this is just simply that yaoi fans are not evil and sinister. And we are not all idiotic cheerleaders with nothing better to do and nothing more edgy to play with than yaoi."

Never called you evil and/or sinister. But cheerleaders? yes, i'd say that's a fair characterization from the het. community. "Give me a Y!"

"Why must people stereotype others just simply because they don't like something people do? No one HAS to like yuri, no one HAS to like yaoi and no one HAS to like het."

Because that is how we undertand and define our world. sterotypes serve a valuable function in that we are able to quickly identify situations that are similar to another and let us respond accordingly. No one has the time to approach every situation from the ground up. Can they be taken too far? Certainly, but such is the case with anything.

"The world seems to be filled with a lot of people who just want to complain but not do anything about what they're complaining about."

I'm not complaining about anything that needs to be taken care of. I find yaoi marginally annoying, so i bitched about it on an anonymous internet forum, what else is the net for?

oh right, porn!

""Yaoi is the most irritating thing to read on the planet and het is taking a backseat to it because of all the followers!" is a common grievance. But, yet, when a lot of these people are asked if they write het themselves, they answer in the negative. When the writers who complain about it are asked if they encourage their friends to write, they answer in the negative or give an excuse such as, "I would, but I don't know any non-writers who are interested in writing" or "I can't seem to interest anyone in it." Well...I'm sorry to say, none of those problems are the yaoi fans' fault or concern. "

Another gross generalization. More to the point, no one in this thread made a statement anything like this.

"I realize I've become long-winded and repetative. I just don't understand what the issue is, myself."

Then why do you keep going on?

"If there aren't enough fics, write more...get readers-only friends to try their hand at it, encourage them to keep it up, offer gentle concrit as a new writer can easily be swayed to never write again until they can develop the leathery skin that most writers acquire with time."

I do write some stories, but I prefer quality over quantity. If other writers stop after getting negative feedback, i'm not going to hold their hand while they write another chapter.

"If there aren't enough topics in a forum, then encourage het fans that you know to come to the forum and talk. At the very least to participate in topics you have started."

I have been.

"I know that the yaoi fanbase is rather humongous, but there's no reason that the het fanbase can't become bigger than it already is. More people just simply have to participate and/or put more effort into researching the topics they write about. And if you can't find anyone within your own fanbase and simply MUST go to yaoi fans to get more, or just simply good, fanfiction...that isn't the yaoi fans' problem. We have writers in our fandoms. We have quite a lot, as you have stated already."

It will get bigger once the whole yaoi thing blows over.

"I'm not even going to get into the "people don't have brains" comment. And those like it. Because, that comment was obviously said by someone who was not using their brain. In my opinion. Not that they don't have one. Just that they were not engaging it at the time of the post. As are most ignorant statements."

The "people don't have brains" comment was directed at MY comment about fangirls running to bukkake, my next example of them trying to push the envelope. The person responded by saying that people don't have brains b/c they don't know when to stop and once bukkake becomes mundane, all bets are off.

"I will also say that I haven't seen a fic where the characters compare penis sizes. Not to say that there aren't any. Sadly, I'm sure there are. If I did happen to click a fic that had that occuring, I would immediately hit the browse button and find something less idiotic."

What?!

"No fandom or genre is perfect. There is no way that anyone can go into any section and find ALL the fics to be perfect. It's all personal preference."

quad erat demonstrandum...

"The problems in the het fandom are not the fault of the yaoi fans. That is plain and simple. I am sorry if you find yaoi to be perverse. I don't agree with you that yaoi is anymore perverse than het or yuri just simply because the fanbase is huge or even religion dictates it be so. Or just because people don't like it. I don't like smoking. I don't like drinking. Am I going to get my way if I complain about it and say that alcoholic beverages and tobacco should be completely and totally stopped from entering the United States or even being produced anywhere in the world? Not likely. But, what is likely if I tried that would be that everybody would stare at me before bursting into a raucous round of laughter."

I don't find it to be perverse, i find it to be pervasive. I'm also going to need a nice glass of scotch after i finish this.

"I wouldn't ask people to change just to please me and I would not presume that they're stupid just because they won't or just because their opinions and/or beliefs and practices are different from mine."

I'm not asking you to change.

"I'm sorry if that is offensive, but it's how I feel. And if that is not what you meant, it came off that way to me and I am sorry for misunderstanding."

I'm not sorry if I come off as offensive.

"But, in answer to your wondering about just WHAT is so great about yaoi. Well, I'll reiterate. I feel that it's more of an equal pairing of characters than most het characters make. And, I just plain and simply find it more satisfying to read, whether the fic has lemon or not. I don't get any enjoyment whatsoever from reading yuri. And, only very few het fics turn out to be interesting to my standards of reading. But, then again, no one can speak for ALL yaoi fans. Other than what I've stated, there is nothing special or different about yaoi in comparison to het, or even yuri. At least, nothing that I can think of. It's pretty much just preference. Just like the strictly het fans get something from het that they don't or can't get from yaoi, the same can be said for yaoi fans when it comes to het. It's preference."

It's not an equal pairing and I get no enjoyment from reading yaoi. Furthermore, i get very little from yuri. I stated earlier in the thread that there wasn't an inherent difference in hetero or homosexual pairings, but you seem intent on placing one over the other.

"This is just my perspective, as one of the people that was being complained about. I do have a brain and I do use it, thank you. And, I do not and have not ever cared about whether something was or was not edgy. It's why I was never popular in school and why I am not popular among most people now. I do what I want simply because I want to do it. I would like yaoi even if the trend was to hate it and it only had very few fans. I don't know about everybody else, but that is how I feel."

Your self esteem issues are yours to deal with.

"And contrary to what some of what I said might sound like, I did not decide to post this just because I wanted to be contrary or just because I wanted to start something. This just my two cents worth that I'm putting in here and I do apologize if I offended anybody."

Yes you did, otherwise you wouldn't have gone on ad nauseum.

"Especially, Zyx, as I know some of the comments came off as offensive to me and I did specifically mention them. I do not intend offense to you, just that simply I found the comments offensive to me. And I do apologize if I was unnecessarily harsh to you. You are entitled to your own opinions."

I'll let Zyx comment.

"And, thank you for your time if anyone chooses to read this the whole way through."

You're welcome.

[Guest BelleKeat]

I could comment on all of the comments given to my last post here. But, I see no reason as most of what I said seems to have been misunderstood. I often get very long-winded because of that. I try to explain what I'm saying as much as possible to avoid misunderstandings. But...generally it doesn't work.

Either way, I find your opinions to be very amusing overall. And at least you were concise and somewhat polite. I do apologize for obviously getting under your skin to make you a bit hostile.

As you said, though, you were just bitching on a forum. I was just bitching back. Yes this was posted on a hetero board. I do like to read het on occasion when I can find something worth reading. It's just that I generally can't.

It's cute that you seem to think you know how I think, though. Which generally seems to state to me that you were offended or irritated by my rant and decided on the type of person I am. You like to generalize people. Well, at least you don't have to worry about being unique.

Do enjoy your scotch, PorkChopExpress86.

~BelleKeat

Edited April 22, 2008 by BelleKeat

[Guest Zyx]

I just wanted to say I do in fact have a brain, I'm pretty smart actually. But my last post wasn't meant to convince anyone I was right, it was just to blow off some steam.

And I'm seriously impressed by the way you changed the subject from "yaoi fans bitching about het" to "het fans bitching about yaoi"...

Well, if you ever feel like reading a non-stereotypical het fic, you should read my story "Bloodplay" when I upload it. That'll show you "deeper plotlines".

And if you feel sex always needs some complicated reasoning behind it you're obviously a perv rather than a romantic.

[PorkChopExpress86]

Either way, I find your opinions to be very amusing overall. And at least you were concise and somewhat polite. I do apologize for obviously getting under your skin to make you a bit hostile.

It's cute that you seem to think you know how I think, though. Which generally seems to state to me that you were offended or irritated by my rant and decided on the type of person I am. You like to generalize people. Well, at least you don't have to worry about being unique.

Trust me kid, if you had gotten under my skin enough to make me hostile you'd know it. Who was the one who came on here and wrote a novel length tirade anyway?

And are you trying to say that you don't generalize people? If so you're either slow witted or a liar. Symbolic Interactionism (see George Herbert Mead's work on the subject) is how humans make sense of the world. We assign meaning to the symbols of skin color, looks, speech patterns, ethnicity, etc. Without these symbols to go on every new encounter would take an exorbitant amount of wasted time. You aren't some enlightened sage of human relation, you stereotype people on a daily basis just like anyone else.

But I’m sorry, you're the one who can't date anyone, male or female, and can't stomach the thought of a long term relationship. Clearly you know so much more about human relationships then I do. Maybe you are some beautifully unique free spirit full of wondrous, exclusive, uniqueness...

And I did enjoy my scotch, thank you.

[Shinju]

In my opinion, everyone needs to smoke more blunts. Trust me, after about the third pass around the circle, it will seem a lot less important.

Yes, PorkChop, you are right, there isn't enough posts in the het section. I came here looking for posts and all I found was this thread. Yes, nobody even blinks at Bukkake anymore, but I really hope bestiality doesn't become prime time Fox, animal rights and junk. I'll check out your Sailor Moon fics, I used to like that fandom quite a bit back in the day.

Yes, Savial, het can be smokin' if done correctly.

Zyx, you hit the nail right on the head. It is important to remember that we are all just a bunch of pervs.

BelleKeat, you are right, Yaoi authors do seem to feel the need to make one of the male characters into a girl with a penis and it is annoying.

Now if you are lucky enough to have the green, sm0ke a J for me because I've no money to spend on such luxuries anymore. Bad economy and all that.

[PorkChopExpress86]

Yes, PorkChop, you are right, there isn't enough posts in the het section. I came here looking for posts and all I found was this thread. Yes, nobody even blinks at Bukkake anymore, but I really hope bestiality doesn't become prime time Fox, animal rights and junk. I'll check out your Sailor Moon fics, I used to like that fandom quite a bit back in the day.

Animal rights? Shouldn't you be more concerned about the prospective Catherine the Greats out there? Don't Wince!!

I hope you like my fics, let me know what you think.

And don't smoke weed... up with hope, down with dope!! Nothing makes me more hopeful then sweet, sweet alcohol...

[Kimmy_Nagasaki]

First of all let me tell you this thread was amusing as fuck to read. XD

Ok, now to establish my opinion.

Yes I am a Yaoi fan, i'll put that out there, but It IS a shame that there isn't more Het on here, probably just as you said, everyone is somewhat more favorable of the Yaoi genre. I also feel like it also depends on the characters in the story that make whatever popular orientation it is. For example, I was a big Yugioh/Naruto fan ahwile back(stories on ff.net)and most of my stories were indeed yaoi because the female characters in my opinion were just retards and I couldn't pair them with anyone. They didn't seem to have depth to their personality in my opinion, and depending on the topic I think that others might agree with me on that. Nobody likes a head over heels bimbo whose crush doesn't even notice they exist.

For the most part however I don't see that in fire emblem fics becuase these characters all have depth to them. They each have a background which is important to how the story unfolds, and For that reason I do see a lot more het fic there than yaoi. I also have been writing more het because of it as well.

Soo I'm open to discussion, and I'm sorry if I don't reply back right away either

[maidenhair]

Speaking as a woman and a yaoi fan, I really do disagree with most of what has been said. People are, however, entitled to their own opinions.

When done right, yaoi is more of an equal partnership. Yuri could probably have the same said about it, but as personal preference I'm not that fond of yuri.

I'm sorry that you find yaoi and it's fandom to be either irritating, offensive or both. But, what it boils down to is preference. I am allowed to like what I want to like, just like you are allowed to do the same.

I, myself, am not at all interested in dating anybody. Not men and not women. I don't EVER want to marry and I would rather gouge my eyes out with a spoon than have to not only go through childbirth but then have to spend the better part of my life raising the child or children. That's just me. I know lesbians and gay men who would love the chance to be allowed to marry their lover within the United States and have it actually be recognized as a real marriage in ALL of the US states and would just fall over dead with happiness if they were one day in the financial position to adopt a child with their significant other. I know many heterosexual women who plan to be, or already are, married with at least two children. If not already,then some day.

The world seems to be filled with a lot of people who just want to complain but not do anything about what they're complaining about.

And contrary to what some of what I said might sound like, I did not decide to post this just because I wanted to be contrary or just because I wanted to start something. This just my two cents worth that I'm putting in here and I do apologize if I offended anybody.

Especially, Zyx, as I know some of the comments came off as offensive to me and I did specifically mention them. I do not intend offense to you, just that simply I found the comments offensive to me. And I do apologize if I was unnecessarily harsh to you. You are entitled to your own opinions.

And, thank you for your time if anyone chooses to read this the whole way through.

Whoa! I innocently walked into a maelstrom here! I probably should keep my mouth shut but I have a problem doing that sometimes. So I really wanna address this. I want to reply to several of your points BelleKeat because...well, because you really kinda pissed me off! You say that you're not trying to be harsh or offensive while being harsh and offensive!

First off, I'm not a big yaoi fan. I've read a few fics that I've enjoyed but it was the romance and the characters that I liked. I'm just not a fan of male on male sex. Personal preference, I suppose but as a woman....men attract me. The thought of sex with a man is exciting. I'm sure that gay men feel the same. I am offended that you feel erotic het fic always reads like an anatomy book. You have obviously not read any good erotic het fiction then.

I disagree that yaoi is somehow superior to both het and yuri as well. Yaoi is not more of an equal partnership. That is solely based on the people involved. Sexual preference is unimportant, dominance is what that's all about. Good sex, for me at least, is a give and take. Sometimes, I like to be in control but there's an excitement that comes with surrendering it as well.

Basically, you came into a thread devoted to het fanfiction and began not only bitch slapping het fiction fans but spouting the glory of yaoi. You provoked the reactions you got. Personally, I think yaoi fanfiction should get a better representative!

[Emikochan]

I'm a girl and I actually prefer het-male/female relationship. Yaoi is okay at times, I'm not that big on yuri myself. But I think it depends on the mood i'm in really on which I prefer to read/write. Or what pairing I am obsessing over.

[PorkChopExpress86]

wow, two women in a row saying they aren't big yaoi fans!? where have they been hiding you?

[tambrathegreat]

"With heterosexual fanfiction, we find mostly PWP when there's sexual involvement. And whether you do or not, it usually has something or other to do with the man being the savior over the woman in some way or another. It's...overdone."

I respectfully suggest you are full of yourself. I read all types of romances. That is why we are here, isn't it? I even write Het romances. My stories are all about the relationship and how the women and men add to it. There is no element of salvation other than the ones that the characters do for themselves.

To say in general terms that all het stories are PWP and all yaoi/slash stories are not is just a gross stereotype. I have read many a slash story that started out as a really good character study, but ended up with every chapter having a sex scene. The plot went out the window once the characters consummated their relationship.

I say, give me a good story with a good plot anytime, but don't inundate me with sexual images to make up for lack of substance, whether the genre is het or slash.

tambrathegreat

[Streti]

Ah yes, the old nut and muffin. But this is buried deep in the anime section. I must say, I like the bath scene in Plastic Little, but that isn't exactly Male/Female either. Perhaps anime is just bad in portraying realistic males, leaving the girl-boys for the yaoi fans and the female characters to the teen boys?

[PorkChopExpress86]

Ah yes, the old nut and muffin. But this is buried deep in the anime section. I must say, I like the bath scene in Plastic Little, but that isn't exactly Male/Female either. Perhaps anime is just bad in portraying realistic males, leaving the girl-boys for the yaoi fans and the female characters to the teen boys?

that's an interesting point. I was always struck by how deeply afraid anime guys were of their female counterparts. OH MY GOD!! 4 HOT GIRLS WANT ME!! RUN AWAYYYYYYYYY!!!!

[Kimmy_Nagasaki]

wow, two women in a row saying they aren't big yaoi fans!? where have they been hiding you?

In the gutter, next to a bottle of Lube XD

that's an interesting point. I was always struck by how deeply afraid anime guys were of their female counterparts. OH MY GOD!! 4 HOT GIRLS WANT ME!! RUN AWAYYYYYYYYY!!!!

Oh the shammmmmmmmmmme! Lol XD

[RryineaHaruno]

I am a woman and I am also not a big fan of Yoai their are even some Yoai couple I don't get at all like the one's in Shuoen Manga because they are the type to say the least under the must all men be gay all of a sudden clause.

I think that the Naurto girl's do have depth .I mean look at Sakura she came so far from a girl who OBSESSED over a guy and now look at her, now it ok to like both Hetro and M/M.

But when I want a good NaruSaku Fan fic and FF. Net and Aff.Net are over run with Sasuke x Sakura, NaruHina, SasuNaru.

I Find it kinda of stupid and I agree that people shouldn't turn all men gay just because they have a chock I MEAN it get tiresome to see men that are obviously Hetero turned gay for people fantasy paring. Why should people change the character sexual preface just because they wont them to be gay. Why must people turn every person Gay or into a lesbian just for the heck of it.

"With heterosexual fanfiction, we find mostly PWP when there's sexual involvement. And whether you do or not, it usually has something or other to do with the man being the savior over the woman in some way or another. It's...overdone."

What so their are mostly teens and adult to say that a story will have no sexual involvement is just stupid. I think when teens are involved their are going to be sexual involvement no mater what. And to say Yoai is deeper ok it the same good dang thing in my opinion. I find your statement quit offense since I am a woman myself. In most Hetero, fan fiction they both bring to the table their love and affection for one another. I have never seen any of what you wear saying in Hereto Fan fiction.

Edited June 30, 2009 by RryineaHaruno