Too Many Sub Categories

[greenwizard]

Ok, I was just looking through the Harry Potter stories for something good to read. The category list has like trippled since I started reading. And I noticed that alot of those categories only had one or two stories in it. While those sub categories were probably requested, and the staff was probably trying to be nice and helpful, in my opinion it clutters things up.

My suggestion is to make it so there needs to be at least 5 stories with a certain pairing to be given it's own subcategory. That should clean up the clutter and make it easier for most to find what they're looking for.

[DemonGoddess]

That's actually the plan for in the future. Although the breakpoint I'd suggested was 10 stories minimum for a pairing subcategory.

[Guest Tuftiperkys]

Just curious, how long would you allow a new subcategory to attempt to thrive? I currently have a request in so this is motivated by selfishness, but I'm just wondering, how would the new subcategories be added? Would you have to have at least ten other stories ready, not you personally, but at least ten requests or stories before you opened a new category?

Sorry, as it says, I'm a forum virgin so I'm still trying to figure out the kinks and whatnot and I have no doubt that my questions are retarded but if you could help me out despite my naivete it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much!

Edited February 22, 2008 by Tuftiperkys

[DemonGoddess]

Just curious, how long would you allow a new subcategory to attempt to thrive? I currently have a request in so this is motivated by selfishness, but I'm just wondering, how would the new subcategories be added? Would you have to have at least ten other stories ready, not you personally, but at least ten requests or stories before you opened a new category?

Sorry, as it says, I'm a forum virgin so I'm still trying to figure out the kinks and whatnot and I have no doubt that my questions are retarded but if you could help me out despite my naivete it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much!

Generally speaking, when adding a subcategory to the fiction portal (archive), we prefer not to create the subcategory without someone having something to put IN to it once it's been done.

The ten stories thing as a breakpoint was something I'd suggested for pair specific subcategories, which is something a bit different. Structure there would be as follows (this is eventually how it will go)

archive >category>pairing type sub category>specific pair category

For example, using the HP archive as the example; you'd have

http://hp.adult-fanfiction.org>main category listing>het>Harry x Ginny

We can't do this yet (the software itself does not support unlimited sublevels, which is necessary), and it certainly will clean things up as well as simplify them.

If you're asking how things are added in the forum, that's a bit different. For the fanfiction section, there are forum categories for each archive subdomain, with discussion forums as subforums. In some where they have 200+ stories (i.e. the subdomains with many, many title categories such as comics, books, and anime), then those title categories get their own subset of forums for discussion as well. I'm still doing all that, by the way, so there will be some additions yet.

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

Something I'm tired of is traipsing all over the place for the same topic. You've got three categories on Transformers, in three different areas. One's in Anime, one's in Movies and one's in Cartoons. That can't be right.

You really ought to clean things like that up.

[DemonGoddess]

All I can do is say, once again, that this is not being ignored. In fact, it's part of a long term project to GET everything better organized. However, understand that we are talking LITERALLY thousands of stories that will need to be moved once the recategorization is in place. It's going to take some time to do it.

Please bear in mind, that the software used for the fiction archive is not designed to allow us to mass move stories and keep them attached to their reviews, ratings, and authors. Something I can easily do in the forum, sure, but it was WRITTEN that way. Sure, I could manipulate them around in the database, but then all the attached data would be not where it's supposed to be, with the story itself. That wouldn't do us any good in the long term.

The tools necessary to allow us to undertake this huge task (and it is a huge task) are being written. Before we unleash the tools, we have to test them to be sure that they perform as we expect, and not scramble everything there. That's something we don't want.

[Wolfie]

Something I'm tired of is traipsing all over the place for the same topic. You've got three categories on Transformers, in three different areas. One's in Anime, one's in Movies and one's in Cartoons. That can't be right.

You really ought to clean things like that up.

Actually to be blunt... The categories are correct...

There is the Transformers Cartoon

There is also the Transformers Movie which just came out this past year and yes, it deserves a category on it's own because the people in the movie, did not appear in the cartoon.

As for the anime..Not too sure there. I only know of the Cartoon and the movie. Perhaps the Anime means the comic book? Was there even a Transformers comic?

[Solaris]

Actually to be blunt... The categories are correct...

There is the Transformers Cartoon

There is also the Transformers Movie which just came out this past year and yes, it deserves a category on it's own because the people in the movie, did not appear in the cartoon.

As for the anime..Not too sure there. I only know of the Cartoon and the movie. Perhaps the Anime means the comic book? Was there even a Transformers comic?

There is a Transformers comic book out there. And the original format that the Transformers originally came from Japan. Thus Anime is correct. You would have to know the Japanese names of all the Autobots and the Decepticons. But that's what Wikipedia is for.

Beth

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

Maybe it is accurate, - yes, there is a cartoon, and there is an anime, and there is a movie, and there's a comic too, but the sections themselves are a mess. People don't know where to put their fics. And I'm sure readers don't know where to look for fics either. Transformers can't be the only category with such a problem either.

It may be accurate but it sure as HELL ain't organised.

One single Transformers section would sort it out, as it would sort outmany simialr problems.

[DemonGoddess]

I agree with ya on the one single category thing. And the disorder. Which drives me batty.

I THINK maybe the determiner as to where the parent should actually live, insofar as to the primary category, should be something like where it originated. Using Transformers as the example as has been ongoing through this thread, since it's origins are anime/manga, then its category would look something like this:

anime>transformers>anime/cartoon/movie/comic

or something along those lines.

Definitely something to kick around tho, as one should not have to jump all over the place to find things that belong to an initial category such as this one.

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

Since Anime is really only a term for "Japanese style animation" that's another thing. Now Manga is something different; Manga is japanese comics. Sometimes they get animated and so they have that little Manga logo on them.

The thing is, I also feel we don't really need Anime AND Cartoons. Sure, Anime sounds cooler and SO Japanese, but it does result in some doubling of categories and confusion. That's something to discuss sometime perhaps. A category titled "Animation" or somesuch would deal with both kinds.

To be absolutely honest, Transformers originated as toys and the cartoon was just to advertise them. But that's all a bit besides the point.

The POINT is that many of the doubled categories only have six or seven stories, while the most used topic may have 40 or more. I'm sure less bandwidth would be used if we used our space more wisely.

I think the next thing to do is find topics that could be merged.

[DemonGoddess]

As I've said numerous times already, I am WELL aware of the general disorder in the fiction portal. So is everyone else who would be making changes to it to so that we (the admin and mods) can actually fix it.

I say again that there are a number of long term projects already being worked on for this very problem.

One is an overall restructure altogether. That is being done offsite, and will remain up as a template for us to work from when the time comes for us to start making the changes.

Another is locating misplaced stories, keeping record of them, so that it'll be easy to backtrack and MOVE them to their proper locations once the archive has been updated to allow us to do what is planned.

Finally, an overall cleanup of the archive itself. Meaning finding duplicate users, merging them (so their data is not lost), finding and deleting orphan stories, and a host of other things that need to be gone over and done; BEFORE we even start with massive upgrades as is planned for the fiction portal.

Believe it or not, there is a LOAD of work to do just to get the thing ready for upgrading.

It's doubtful that you (the users) will see much of the background legwork that is necessary and is being done. The only truly visible parts of it at this point in time will likely be deletion of orphan stories.

[Guest Tuftiperkys]

As I've said numerous times already, I am WELL aware of the general disorder in the fiction portal. So is everyone else who would be making changes to it to so that we (the admin and mods) can actually fix it.

I say again that there are a number of long term projects already being worked on for this very problem.

One is an overall restructure altogether. That is being done offsite, and will remain up as a template for us to work from when the time comes for us to start making the changes.

Another is locating misplaced stories, keeping record of them, so that it'll be easy to backtrack and MOVE them to their proper locations once the archive has been updated to allow us to do what is planned.

Finally, an overall cleanup of the archive itself. Meaning finding duplicate users, merging them (so their data is not lost), finding and deleting orphan stories, and a host of other things that need to be gone over and done; BEFORE we even start with massive upgrades as is planned for the fiction portal.

Believe it or not, there is a LOAD of work to do just to get the thing ready for upgrading.

It's doubtful that you (the users) will see much of the background legwork that is necessary and is being done. The only truly visible parts of it at this point in time will likely be deletion of orphan stories.

Hang in there, you sound beyond frazzled.

You're incredible for answering everyone's individual questions patiently even though you've already mentioned your plan of action more than once. I'm sure everyone, myself included, appreciates the amazing work you are doing both behind the scenes and on the stage. This is the most accessible and easily traversable fanfiction site that I have visited (and I have visited quite a few) so the fact that you are improving upon it is very gracious on your part. It is a tremendous undertaking and I wish you the best of luck. Don't feel rushed by overzealous users, we are all patiently awaiting the results of your hard work just sometimes our excitement gets the best of us.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Tuftiperkys

[DemonGoddess]

Hang in there, you sound beyond frazzled.

You're incredible for answering everyone's individual questions patiently even though you've already mentioned your plan of action more than once. I'm sure everyone, myself included, appreciates the amazing work you are doing both behind the scenes and on the stage. This is the most accessible and easily traversable fanfiction site that I have visited (and I have visited quite a few) so the fact that you are improving upon it is very gracious on your part. It is a tremendous undertaking and I wish you the best of luck. Don't feel rushed by overzealous users, we are all patiently awaiting the results of your hard work just sometimes our excitement gets the best of us.

You just made my day! Thank you!

[canterro]

Yep!

I can sign the words of Tuftiperkys

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

Having once been a forum admin, I know there's a lot of work involved, I'd just like to point out I'm aware of the work that must go into all the rearranging. The multiple similar posts had more to do with speaking to people who think (and say) "Hey, lots of categories! Cool!" rather than asking the same person the same request repeatedly.

Just saying, DG.

Now it's time to discuss... do we really need Anime AND Cartoons? Aren't they the same thing? Really Anime is just Japanese cartoons. And even then it doesn't have to be. Not that I have a big problem diferentiating, but they can be the same thing and it will confuse you guys as to where to put things.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Harley Quinn hyenaholic

[DemonGoddess]

we're talkinga bout apples and oranges. The categories in discussion are in the FICTION PORTAL, not the forum. As to Anime and Cartoons, they are indeed separate categories. Anime is animated stuff based on Japanese manga and sometimes books, cartoons, are primarily American in origin and most of the time based off comic books.

The forum itself is actually easy to administer, whereas the fiction portal is....problematic at best at the moment. No tools to speak of, because it wasn't written that way, so any tools to do any sort of common functions like moving stuff have to be written . Good thing is, all that is being done. Bad thing is, the tools take time to write so they don't thoroughly gum up the works and end up doing something unexpected, which could cause all kinds of problems. Further, (using the move tool as an example) since certain of the fields are unique within the subdomain and table they're currently in, they are NOT unique across the database. So, there is alot of work to be done to make it so they are before being able to say, move a story and all its data from one subdomain and its tables to another.

[scottishfae]

Now it's time to discuss... do we really need Anime AND Cartoons? Aren't they the same thing? Really Anime is just Japanese cartoons. And even then it doesn't have to be. Not that I have a big problem diferentiating, but they can be the same thing and it will confuse you guys as to where to put things.

May I suggest that you never repeat such an absurd and utterly incorrect observation about anime in front of any anime fan? Honestly, you will be ripped a new one by fans because they are absolutely not the same things!

Why? Well cartoons, for one, is a specific style of animation on it's own and it's most typical within the US (and other European or former European-colonized countries). Anime is a specific form of animation style unique to Japan--but also seen in other Asian countries (Korean has a huge manhwa industry and is breaking into anime, as well). Granted, anime can be traced back to roots in the cartoon style--the Japanese based a lot of earlier animation off of Walt Disney, whom there was a very curious obsession with during Walt's hay-day. But they have taken these early inspirations and created a style of animation that is so uniquely their own that, now, other countries--including the Americans--are trying to mimic it (i.e. Avatar, which is still a cartoon, imo, b/c it is still American-made).

Besides just the obvious, cartoons also have a very different connotation than anime. Even with the popularity of [adult swim] growing, cartoons are still primarily thought of as "children's shows." Again, shows like The Simpsons, Family Guy, Aqua Teen Hunger Force, and a handful of others have been challenging this concept, it still remains that most Americans think all cartoons should be for kids. Anime, however, is not. Anime is an art form in and of itself. The people who make anime--the industry itself--still place heavily on the aesthetic value of how the animation looks and feels. Look at series like Seirei no Moribito and just be amazed at the high quality of work that no American Cartoon company would ever put into their series. Anime is also for all ages, from things like Pokemon (which still has a lot of sexual innuendos that has to be edited out for American audiences--stupid 4Kids) to things like Hellsing, which contains lots of blood, gore, sexual references, and just plain violence. And I'm not going into the thousands upon thousands of hentai, yaoi, and yuri anime out there--all of which show explicit sexual situations.

And of course, there is also the fact that by lumping anime into just the generalized "cartoon" category (and this is beyond just AFF), you are basically telling an entire nation that one of their main forms of entertainment--an art form they prize so much on they are making it one of their country's marketing forces for tourism, something that has been quite successful in its first few years--that it isn't anything special. That it's just like what everyone else in the world, just the same as American cartoons, and it shouldn't be separated and treasured as something different--and it's very obvious that it is different. No offense to some American cartoons, which are great in their own right, but stories, art style, and animation quality of cartoons are rarely, if ever, anything to be compared to most anime (though there will alway be exceptions). Anime (and manga, really) are matters of national pride, and a huge economic force, and to just decide that it shouldn't be something free-standing as it is is a travesty to the art (and to the country).

Oh--and of course one more obvious thing, anime/manga caters to fandom a lot more than other mediums/forms of entertainment. And what is fanfiction, but a tool of fandom? Why would you insult one of your bigger fandoms by combining it with another source of fandom that it's not entirely like? Doesn't make much sense.

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

Now Scottish, don't be a git. I love anime. And Manga too. And I never said it wasn't anything special.

I'm just saying that it's just a different style of drawing. And it's all cartoons.

Anime is just JAPANESE cartoons. From Japan. You know.

We had a style of animation in the 80s. We had a style of animation in the 90s. Now in the 00s we seem to be moving around to ripping off Japan's style of ten years ago.

Anybody with a brain should know that Anime is the same thing as cartoons. I don't put cartoons from the USA in a different category to cartoons from the UK. I don't class computer animated cartoons in a different area to drawn cartoons. They may not be the same but why make things MORE difficult?

Oh nos! I'm making the world EXPLODE!

Edited March 27, 2008 by Harley Quinn hyenaholic

[scottishfae]

Now Scottish, don't be a git. I love anime. And Manga too. And I never said it wasn't anything special.

I'm just saying that it's just a different style of drawing. And it's all cartoons.

Anime is just JAPANESE cartoons. From Japan. You know.

We had a style of animation in the 80s. We had a style of animation in the 90s. Now in the 00s we seem to be moving around to ripping off Japan's style of ten years ago.

Anybody with a brain should know that Anime is the same thing as cartoons. I don't put cartoons from the USA in a different category to cartoons from the UK. I don't class computer animated cartoons in a different area to drawn cartoons. They may not be the same but why make things MORE difficult?

Oh nos! I'm making the world EXPLODE!

Good job at belittling a whole country's art form! To pass off anime as cartoons is not just an insult to people who are fans but it is literally taking it for something that it isn't. A cartoon, as we know it now, is a form of animation. Anime (or Japanime, as some people have termed it) is also a form of animation. Cartoons and anime are two separate things--there is cultural significance to them both. Yes, styles of animation change--you can see that within anime through the decades just as much as you can through cartoons--so argument invalid that they're one in the same. By using the word cartoon as something that is the same as anime you are supplanting one country's animation styling over another's. And yes, this may seem like a trivial thing, but it comes down to the old arguments of colonialism and superiority. Why must you lump them together? Why must you assume that everything must be the same? I'm not saying that every form of animation has to be classified in and of itself, b/c many show very many of the same qualities. European/American animation tend to mimic each other more often than not, and Asian animation does the same; however, you simply cannot say one thing is all the same without looking at the finer qualities. If you must make things non-complicated for your own feelings of self-worth or whatever, call everything animation--not cartoons. That is, I will repeat for the last time in this reply, a culturally dependent term and should not be used as an universal term.

And you argue that "anyone with a brain should know that anime is the same as cartoons"--and yet, you've not proved your own brain's worth. All I see is random sentences without any valid points to back up your argument. You have no knowledge of the history of anime or cartoons, no outlook of the cultural impacts each have, you just see that they're moving drawings and assume that everything is the same. Over generalizations are one of the banes of humanity, and that, in itself, is an over generalization.

And no the world doesn't end over something like this, but you should think about cultural aspects and origins of things before you simply conclude that everything is the same. Too often people think only of themselves and their own views of the world and that leads to more problems. We live in a world that is becoming more connected daily but we're not opening our minds through this connection to see that everyone's values don't always meet. We need to see this, our future is dependent on this acknowledgment that what we think or what mean isn't going to be the same as everyone else--and that no one person's ideals are better than another, no one country's is better than another's.

[Guest Tuftiperkys]

"Stop it! Stop fighting. Can't you see that you're tearing us apart?"

--From the immortal words of Caboose from Red vs. Blue

Edited March 28, 2008 by Tuftiperkys