Writing about minors

[Shinju]

Okay, if you are going to read part of this read the whole thing or none at all, because the beginning is different from the end.

The reason there are laws against sleeping with teens is because teenagers are hormonal crazy psychopaths unable to make their own decisions because they are crazy hormonal psychopaths. You stick your dick in wrong and the next thing you know, they've killed themselves, because they're crazy. I'm not saying all of them, just a vast majority that can't see past their own brooding emotions and hormones. That is why they belong to they belong to their parents until they are 18, when they are of legal age to experiment with their craziness, which can last until they are about age 22. So, technically speaking, sleeping with someone underage is like messing with their parent's property, which is only part of the reason it is illegal.

Personally, I would never contemplate sleeping with someone under the age of 18 because I feel that their mental capacity is about the size of a small bean and that is a serious turn off. And I would seriously bash my head into a wall if I found myself falling for someone even 18 or 19 because to me people are still annoyingly capricious at that age. Not to offend, I was 19 when I joined this site. And when I was 19 I was going out with someone 26. I'm just saying younger people are not for me in a romantic or sexual sense. I'm not trying to young person bash.

But when I was a minor, I contemplated sleeping with adults all the time. And I nearly did, twice. But luckily for me, antisocialness and just plain nerves got the better of me both times. Something like that seriously would have fucked me up. Because I had the teenage crazy. And even though I might have been able to make myself seem mature enough to those adults, I most definitely was not.

BUT I believe in free speech and think people should be able to read and write and draw what they want (without question or scrutiny) as long as it does not involve an actual minor. People have many reasons for reading or writing such things and it my have more to do with inner demons, feelings, lost youth, enslaving muses, personal psychology, story telling, art or any number of things that have nothing to do with the reader/writer being a pedo. Besides, if you read something on a site like AFF labeled "minor," it is pretty easy to tell whether it was written by a pedo or not because your tummy will start to get sick and you will start to think "Eww, this is really wrong." Like that one story "Little Suzie" or whatever I think it was Zyx linked to. Don't know who wrote it, but I think that person has problems. It's still legal for him to write as long as he actually didn't do it.

But most people on AFF are just telling stories and are not creepy child molesting pedos and I don't think reading stuff like that makes you a pedo. Just because someone really likes horror movies and really loves The Silence of the Lambs does not make them a serial killer or mean they want to become one. I think more people identify with the victim rather than the attacker. People on AFF may like to read about two minors because they wish something like that would have happened to them as a teenager and there's nothing wrong with that.

A lot of twisted shit like violence and non con shows up in my writing because, well, I always thought I had a muse that writes this stuff for me. I seriously don't know where it comes from. I think I have some sort of a masochistic victim complex. But I never write about minors because, well, I just don't.

The bottom line is there are story lines involving minors everywhere, not just on the internet. I believe someone above mentioned V.C. Andrews. And I just caught a glimpse of the cheerleading scene from American Beauty on one of the movie channels. The point is it's everywhere and if you started drawing lines you'd have to get rid of all that too.

[fawnheart]

Bitter Smitten....

Wow, thankyou for taking the time to write that. It makes perfect sense to me finally, I seem to remember that some one wrote something that hinted at your explanation, but it didn't make as much sense as what your post did. And yes, teenagers are hormonal, crazy animals and that is what I try to explain to my neices, that when you actually engage in sex before you are ready, it just complicates things and messes thing up beyond all recognition until you are mature enough to deal with it. I'm going to save your post and keep it handy next time the issue comes up because it explains things better than my 3 hour lectures to them ever could lol. But anyway, on to what this thread was really about...

....I think that I'm finally beginning to understand how people can write that stuff too, from your post, and I do realise it's not illegal now, the first poster explained that to me. Not sure if I'm right but from what I can gather, writing that crap is actually therapeutic? If so, more power to the people who feel the need to do so, but still, I do worry that pedos could read it and act on it, but it seems that I am the only one who is sus about that. I don't think I can change my mind on that. I would prefer it if people needed to write that stuff to get their demons out or whatever, that they write it and burn it...sort of like when someone has really pissed you off and you write them a letter flipping out at them to get it all out of your system and then burn it and let it go....works for me but different things for different people. Some people seem to think it's better for a pedo to wank on their screen or whatever, but that doesn't seem reasonable to me, since in the next sentence those people said that pedo's who are that way inclined will go out and perpetrate the crime anyway, regardless of what they read. So that reasoning never cut it for me since it seemed that by posting those stories, people weren't inspiring crimes, they were just providing the sickos with a free wank. Your post has finally made sense of it all for me though, thanks for that.

I don't read things labelled minor, although when I first joined this site I did, simply because I didn't know what the ratings meant and didn't really pay too much attention to them. I soon learned though...the hard way, but that was my fault. There is only one story I read that is labelled 'minor', and that is vivid_white's "Someday never comes", because it is never revoltingly graphic, is necessary to the story and not gratuitous, and is more about their character's ...well, how he is growing as a person. Basically, it's tasteful and not sick in the slightest...and it's a good story.

Recently what has really pissed me off though, is when people don't label their work, draw you in with a good story and then it deteriorates into gratuitous, graphic pedo crap that isn't even necessary to the plot...and that is the authors fault. So to Hanabi, had you read the previous posts, you would have seen that that is what I said. I don't like the stuff, I don't read it. Some authors don't label their work correctly and on 3 occassions recently, I have read stories because they WEREN'T labelled minor, and they ended up being pedo crap. So telling me not to read it if I don't like it was just a waste of both our bandwidth.

And Zyx, yes, I do detest every pedophile, random, deliberate or otherwise. They prey on the vulnerable (children) for their own sexual gratification with no thought to the damage they cause to their victim or their families. I don't refer to the writers on here, I DO refer to pedo's. That crap that they are child 'lovers' is just that...crap. There is nothing loving about destroying lives. And as far as a pedo destroying a child and their family and every one who knows them, not being anyone's business, well I will say here... yes, it is my business. Not only that, it is EVERYONE'S business and responsibility to protect the vulnerable members of their community, children especially. Do you suggest that if I saw a child being hurt that wasn't mine, that I should just walk past? Cos I tell you, if it was my child getting hurt and I found out that someone walked past and didn't help them because they didn't feel it was their business, I'd spew. I'd hold them as responsible as the pedo. What's more, nothing gladdens my heart and the hearts of everyone I know more than hearing that a pedo got what was coming to him in jail

But then again...pedophiles and how much I and most of the civilised world hates them wasn't what this thread was about, it was about whether or not writing about minors was illegal.

It isn't.

Bitter smitten, thanks again for your post, it really has helped me get my head around it.

[Shinju]

Eh, they won't understand it 'til they're older anyways. There's really no way to stop teenagers from having sex. My mother actually went with me to get birth control when I was underage (you can blame that on another family member's prego scare), but even though I took it I never had sex until I was nearly 20. It was more of a "in case my stupid teenagerness gets me in trouble" thing. I went to a lot of party's back then, and even though we watched out for each other, who knows, things may have gotten lax one day and some bozo could have slipped something in my drink. But if I really had anybody I liked back then, trust me, there would have been no stopping me, not even bars on the window.

What has always seriously irked the hell out of me is that pharmacy's are legally required to sell abortion pills, yet they can't sell you birth control pills? Wtf? Seriously! Plan B is even more dangerous because it's a concentrated dose. You can sell what some people think of as infanticide but you can't sell the f-ing prevention??? It's not that I'm angry about whether they can sell plan b or not, I'm not going to reveal my political views because I don't want to spur a heated political debate, it's more the insanely stupid double standard I detest.

[DarkInuLord]

Wow, this thread is too long to read, I'll just throw in my two cents.

I had an idea for a cutesy romance story a while back, and the first few chapters were going to be about them as children, and I was going to throw in one of those "You show me your's I'll show you mine" moments to be 'cute', since well... We have to be honest, kids do that. But I thought I had better be on the safe side and not add that in, even if it was just going to be them basically saying "You show me your's I'll show you mine."

Never did finish that story, I think it got deleted when I last reformatted my hard drive.

[Shinju]

See, there's nothing illegal with that unless you're on trial for stachatory. Then it could be brought up in court as "evidence."

[shinigamiinochi]

I'm just a little curious here...

Quite a few stories seem to have some fairly graphic descriptions of boys, some even go as far as to say they are 11 years old etc, being abused sexually.

I am just wondering where the line is between child pornography and acceptible fiction. Some authors say they don't condone what they are writing about but to me that's like saying, yeah in xyz country, they post pornographic pictures of children and I'm just bring back a collection and posting it on the net to show you what is wrong...here have a look. Somehow, I don't think that excuse would hold in a court of law if the police turned up and found the 'warning collection'.

What's more, as an adult, I have read things on here that have given me an idea about something to try out on my husband (poor guinea pig that he is!) and knowing that, I wonder if, as authors, don't they have a responsibility to ensure that the material they write about doesn't a) get some pedo off or b ) give a potential pedo some pretty graphic ideas and almost written instructions on how to abuse a child?

I dunno, I'm a little confused about this...no actually, I'm not confused, I'm concerned.

Actually, law states that, under freedom of speech, you can read and publish whatever you want. It is only if you have documented proof that this material was used by a convicted criminal that it is unlawful, but even then, the writer is not responsible for the actions of others because of a little thing called 'free will', therefore, they can't be prosecuted, but their material can be censored or stop being published all together.

[shinigamiinochi]

bottom line? we live in America, and therefore enjoy freedom of speech. I write a lot slash, but I'm not all that concerned about violating the minds of homophobes. Why should we be held responsible for other people's hesitations or lusts? I mean, i don't think that the amount of bondage I write is going to contribute to the amount of people going out and doing it. Everyone has a choice. If you go out and shoot someone and blame it on a video game, that's all well and good, but the video game didn't brainwash you and force you to do it, you just got an idea. When I saw sweeney todd, I got the idea to go out and stab all the people that used to bully me in middle school, but guess what, I didn't do it! Why, cause it's just an idea and i was able to use common sense to reach a conclusion. If you're unable to do that, then you have a mental illness and it wouldn't have mattered either way if you had read that material. As for corrupting children, well, i was reading smut at ten to twelve, and I didn't turn out to be some crazy rapist/murderer. Actually, psychologically, coddling a child about adult matters (I'm talking ten years, not five) is more harmful to their growth than having them look at playboy or horror movies. All in all, writers can write what they want and they shouldn't have to be told to be 'more responsible', it's not our fault people are crazy. As for writing smut to turn people on or writing child abuse because you fantasized about it, that's bs. I write a lot of sex stuff, but I think that the psychology behind how far people go when they are influenced, not by human reason, but base animal instinct, is incredibly fascinating, not because I relish the idea that my readers will be jerking off when they read it.

[crash]

You have to be very careful about this. Not everyone on this site lives in America. The laws are very different in other countries. This week a man in Canada was convicted of "Possession of Written Child Pornography". According to Canadian law, written descriptions of sex between an adult and anyone under the age of 18 can be considered as child pornography.

This is a result of a case that went to the Supreme Court of Canada a few years back. The man was a convicted pedophile and was trying to publish a graphic story about adult/child sex. The Supreme court for various reasons, mostly what was called 'Artistic Merit', dropped the charges for the fictional story. He was convicted of a number of different charges that were laid at the same time. They only dropped the ones associated with the written story.

The law was changed to read that instead of 'Artistic Merit', the story has to meet the criteria of 'Being for the Public Good'. In other words, if the court determines that you wrote a story about adult/child sex because it sounded good, you now have a criminal record. When I read the law, 'Being for the Public Good', allows someone to write about their own experience, or someone else's, as research or information. The law is aimed at Fiction. The way I understood it, if you write a story, it cannot be just about the sex. The sex would be a sidebar to the main impetus of the story. Even Harold Robbins had a plot and character development.

The law refers to adult/child sex, but it does not discern where a graphic sex scene between two 17 year olds would fall. Both characters are underage, so there is a strong possibility it may be considered as child porn.

Another thing that should be mentioned, is the definition of the term possession. If it appears on your monitor, you are in possession of it. That is the way that it's defined in Canada. It does not have to be saved to a file. It just has to appear or have appeared on your monitor. When it shows up, it's usually saved in your cache file. Even if it's deleted a ghost will remain until it's overwritten.

In Canada, if you write a story that falls into the above criteria and post it on the net, welcome to the wonderful world of 'Distribution of Child Pornography'!

I am not a lawyer, but I looked into it when I saw the story of him being convicted of possessing written child pornography. It piqued my interest, because I had never thought of that as being a crime. It's fiction, it is the product of someone's imagination, how can it be illegal? Well the people in Ottawa thought it should be, so now it is.

Knowing that there are authors that write about adult/child sex, some of who may live in Canada, I thought it needed to be mentioned.

[Guest Zyx]

And Zyx, yes, I do detest every pedophile, random, deliberate or otherwise. They prey on the vulnerable (children) for their own sexual gratification with no thought to the damage they cause to their victim or their families. I don't refer to the writers on here, I DO refer to pedo's. That crap that they are child 'lovers' is just that...crap. There is nothing loving about destroying lives. And as far as a pedo destroying a child and their family and every one who knows them, not being anyone's business, well I will say here... yes, it is my business. Not only that, it is EVERYONE'S business and responsibility to protect the vulnerable members of their community, children especially. Do you suggest that if I saw a child being hurt that wasn't mine, that I should just walk past? Cos I tell you, if it was my child getting hurt and I found out that someone walked past and didn't help them because they didn't feel it was their business, I'd spew. I'd hold them as responsible as the pedo. What's more, nothing gladdens my heart and the hearts of everyone I know more than hearing that a pedo got what was coming to him in jail

Did you even read what I wrote?

-sigh-

[bitBlackmage]

I don't read or write about prepubescent children being sexed up or abused. I don't like it at all and personally, for me to read or write it would be automatic support for it in all manners.

Now I do write/read about teenagers because like it or not, they are horny little buggars.

[greenwizard]

This is my two cents... I know that writing a story about an underage fictional character engaging in sexual activity is perfectly legal. I myself don't write anything with a character under the age of 14. In my opinion, that's plenty old enough for a teenager to understand what they're getting into.

Now, so this doesn't turn into a which hunt, I will state now that I don't condone pediphila. That being said, I think there is a huge difference between fantisizing and doing. If someone wants to fantasize about children and read smut about them, I say whatever floats your boat. I see no problem with it as long as they keep it in their minds and don't actually carry anything out.

I've had fantasies about raping another person. I will most likely never carry any of them out. I'll read stories about rape and get turned on. Am I going to try to recreate a story I read because I thought it was hot? I seriously doubt it.

As a rational adult I know that rape is wrong. So why do I get so turned on by a story about it? Purple. I've been raped myself. I tried to figure it out, but it made my head hurt. I don't let it bother me because no one actually gets hurt in the stories or in my head.

Let's say for arguments sake I did decide to reinact my favorite rape story. When I explain myself to the police after I get caught, if I say 'This story on AFF made me do it!', now that is the copout. I would just be one more person trying to get out of being responsible for my own actions. The same goes with pediphiles. Even if they are inspired by a piece of fiction, they were eventually going to act on their feelings whether they came across the story or not. There are those who just fantisize all of their lives, and those who eventually act. No piece of ficion is going to change what a person will or will not do in real life.

[fawnheart]

Crash...

hahahahaha! I knew I loved Canadians for a good reason. It's blatant common sense to me, but as an Australian, we have heaps in common with the way Canadians think anyway.

I love it lol, thankyou for posting that!

[greenwizard]

Actually, my boyfriend and I were talking about this subject the other day, and he had an interesting thought. What some of you are worried about is a pedo reading one of these stories and will get the idea to go try it on a real child.

But what if these people who habe a sexual attraction to young children seek out these stories to get their jollies from it so that they aren't tempted to touch a real child...? What if because of people with views like yours, more children actually end up getting hurt BECAUSE the fiction isn't out there? They won't be able to get their jollies from a fictional character, so they might turn to a real child when their urges become too much. Maybe these stories are having the opposite effect that you think it does.

That was my boyfriend's take on the issue. I agree with it. I really hate people with sticks up their asses. Making something like pedophile fiction illegal when no live person actually gets hurt because of a few people's "hollier than thou" views is forcing their opinion in the rest of the population. People like that need to shut the fuck up about the damn fiction and direct their resources to real live children who are being molested.

My boyfriend actually knew a 14 year old girl that was being molested by her step father. She tried to tell her mother, but her mother didn't believe her. She confided in my boyfriend, but she didn't know where to go or what to do. I think all this time and energy would be better spent offering help to girls who are really in trouble.

[crash]

That's part of the problem. There is no real scientific proof that stories involving sexual interaction with children, will cause a person with those desires to go one way or the other. People will use the 'I looked at/read child porn on the net and it made me do it' defense, so they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. Without valid scientific proof that reading about sexual acts with children enables them to diffuse their needs, the argument is a wash.

Lawmakers on the other hand, will jump up and down, condemn it, and do everything to ban it, because they are media whores. They will scream at the top of their lungs and ignore any plausible facts, so they can be seen as doing something to protect the children. Parents worry about the safety of their kids, and they vote. We all know that the primary goal of any politician is getting re-elected. So they make noise, jump on a hot button issue and they just need to be seen as 'working for the Public Good'. No politician in their right mind will want to be seen saying "Maybe we should determine if written child porn is dangerous or not." Nope, much easier to just ban it all and make everyone associated with it a criminal.

[Guest somnolent]

After taking a few hours to read this thread I can't really contribute anything new. I agree, written word isn't illegal. I agree, the intention to abuse a child must be there in order to act - the act isn't caused by reading a story. I agree, people may be writing strictly to satisfy a muse, as a psychological project, or for personal therapy. It doesn’t matter how the author got the idea to write nor does it make the author an abusive person – writing doesn’t equal condoning.

I’m in Canada and from a stereotypical redneck community. I like writing material that shocks people and pushes boundaries. Like a previous replier said, readers may be sceptical about certain subject matters because they don’t have much experience or knowledge about the kink. But I always mind laws no matter where the plot takes place.

Personally my writing is for therapeutic purposes. Once, I wrote a paper in school that caused quite an uproar with my teachers. I was 6 years old when my friends confessed to being sexually abused by parents. I was in grade three when my best friend, also my age, committed suicide due to sexual abuse from her mother. When I write and post stories on the internet, I use labels and proper disclaimers – I trust my readers to know their limits and just as I don’t judge people who read my work, I trust my readers not to judge me.

[greenwizard]

I've gotten to see the ugly side of child molestation. I have an ex that I'm still friends with who was molested by his father most of his childhood. The reject preyed on him and his sister both. He tried to get help. Everyone thought he was just a brat that wanted his father to get put in jail.

I really wish more would be done to help the actual victims. Yeah, his dad had child pornogrophy, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't what made his dad do what he did. When I was dating his sister the guy grabbed my ass! The sister wanted to watch me and her brother when she found out I was bi. The whole family is very very sick. Fortunately my friend still had some shred of sanity and ended up moving in with me just to get out of there. And think about it, his dad is still walking around free.... *shivers* So which is more important... making it illegal to write pedophilia about fictional characters, or getting people like my friend's dad off the street?

[fawnheart]

"Freedom of expression"... does that only apply to those who follow what's currently fashionable? Because for the rest of us who express concerns, as i have done in this thread, it seems that basic right isn't extended to us and we get labelled as having sticks up our arses and accused of trying to force our morals onto everyone. Thankfully the majority of the civilised world extend freedom of expression to everyone, not just to those who follow what is fashionable at the time.

The hypocracy cracks me up, seriously, thankyou. I got a good laugh out of that. On one hand you complain that all this time could be spent being concerned about girls in real life... yeah the whole 5 mins each post takes for me to write a reply... I don't think that is going to help much - and then the next line you go off on a diatribe about the positions of sticks and bums of those who express their concerns. Well, i personally think that prevention in the case of a childs welfare, if at all possible, is better than the cure.

I'm satisfied. The people in Ottawa have a huge pat on the back from me. I'm also satisfied from the reasonable people who have thoughtfully considered the concerns posted in this thread, who suggest that writing that kind of material is therapeutic. I'm all for people doing whatever they have to, to have happy, fulfilling lives. I myself would prefer they wrote what they had to and burned it, apparently that works well to release inner demons. LIke when someone annoys you and you write them an abusive letter letting it all hang out and then burn it and let it go. It doesn't make sense to me to write that material on the basis of coming to terms with abuse, and risk getting potential or existing abusers off. But that's just my opinion, I'm hardly shoving it down anyone's throat.

But then, because I am not going along with what is the fashionable way of thinking, I get accused of trying to force my morals on everyone else but it seems like you are trying to force yours, on me. Anyway, I'm done with this thread, I've gotten the answers I was looking for from people who were capable of thoughtful discussion and kindly took the time to express their views. Thanks to those, and peace to everyone else.

[greenwizard]

I'm not trying to force my views on anyone. If you would have actually read what I said.... trying to stamp out people writing what they want to isn't going to prevent shit. You got a pat on the back from like- minded people. My problem is that people like you come out with this opinion because you want to feel like you're doing something constructive and helpful.

If someone gets it into their head to molest a child, they are going to do it no matter if there is "porn" available to them or not. If tomorrow it became illegal to write erotic fiction with minors in it in all countries, the people who got that law passed would be so proud of themselves because they did a public service. They'd want their cookie. But then in reality land all those pedophiles who used to wank off to those stories will go look for real kids because they'll need thier fix.

The whole thing is something that has seriously annoyed me. It's like those mothers that get their panties in a knot over violence and bad language on TV. Granted, I will say that things have gotten a bit out of hand in that department. But my grandparents have a home movie of me cussing out my toy chest at the age of 2. Somehow I don't think I learned that language by watching Seaseme Street... Everyone is so busy looking for something to blame and attack that they don't see the real issue. My point is being proven by how I'm being attacked.

I'm not saying it isn't possible for one pediphile out there to read a story and decide to try it. But that's one out of how many thousands. Making something illegal because a group of people think it's wrong makes it so those who don't think it's wrong have to comply with the wishes of the few anyway. There is pediphile fiction out there, and nobody is making you read it cupcake. The beauty of freedom is that if you don't want to read something or do something, you don't have to.

All of this is how I feel. But I was just attacked for how I feel because I supposedly attacked you. That just reinforces my opinion of humanity in general. Maybe I'm just done period.

[Guest Rosemarius]

Fawnheart, nobody's attacking you, but please note that what you are saying is basically the same things people say when they want to ban anime or violent movies: "because people will watch it and do the same".

So, if this applies, to fics about minors (which are, anyway, really unrealistic most of the time, and I really can't see how a real pedo could get off it: for what I know most pedos are squicked out by hair and bodily fluids like precum and sperm, which appear in most of the shota fics I've seen), following your logic it would apply to everything else.

So we should just:

-Ban all animes: animes often show people hurting each other, having battles and getting hurt. People might get the inspiration to hurt each other by watching anime.

-Ban all gay movies/animes/songs/books. People might get the inspiration to be gay and turn gay the whole world.

-Ban all movies/shows/songs/books etc that show death. People might get the inspiration to kill the ones they don't like

-Ban all movies/shows/songs/books etc that show incest. People might get the inspiration and start fucking their own father/mother/brother/sister/dog/babysitter etc...

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show cutting and any form of self-injury. People might get the inspiration and start cutting themselves

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show teenagers getting it on with their teachers. Teenagers and teachers might get the inspiration to fuck each other like there's no tomorrow.

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show people hurting animals. People might get the inspiration to start hurting their ones.

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show satanism. People might get the inspiration to turn satanist.

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show serial killers. People might get the inspiration to become serial killers.

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show madness. People might get the inspiration and go mad.

-Ban all movies/shows/books etc that show basically anything, because someone might get the inspiration to do something wrong.

Then all problems would be gone, following your logic.

What would also be gone, would be any form of art, television and personal expression in the world. But that's secondary, isn't it?

Who cares to become a soul less, emotionless and talentless person in a soul less, emotionless and talentless world if all the problems are gone?

Would you give up your individuality in order to make the world flawless?

[greenwizard]

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying, but in a more tactful way. Sorry to anyone who took offense, but I'm naturally blunt.

I agree that society has decayed a lot. There are movies and TV shows out there that make me want to find a nice hole to hide in. Seeing violence and sex all the time in the media makes people think that it's no big deal. People do sometimes get ideas from seeing some of this stuff. I'm not arguing any of that.

But what you're trying to do is blame the media totally, (in this case fics that feature pedophile erotica) and you're attacking it. Seriously, in this modern world personal responsibilty has completely gone out the window. We blame everyone and everything but ourselves for our personal faults.

By eliminating all those things that Rosemarius listed would only be punishing those of us who didn't do anything wrong. Grown men who have it in their heads to molest little girls would still do so.

If you study history, these things have been going on since before written word even existed. Hell, up until about 50 years ago, it wasn't all that uncommon for 30 year old men to marry 13 year old girls. That practice only stopped because doctors discovered that it wasn't good for a girl that young to get pregnant. It wasn't because anyone thought it was morally wrong. That kind of thinking only started with the women's rights movement. So men have been having sex with young boys and girls for thousands of years. How can you blame something on a piece of fiction before writing fiction even existed?

I really wish people would do their research before they stand up on soap boxes. I've been fighting with people that have that kind of thinking longer than I really want to think about. I can remember when people thought homosexuality was a disease.... I used to have fun pinning jocks up against the wall and licking them .

[shinigamiinochi]

What makes the world such a beautiful place is the mix of dark and light. Without death, we would not cherish life, without sickness we would not be grateful for our health. Without pain, our existence would be flat, with no comparison. To me, that would be a fate worse than death. Take away all of our problems and we will never grow, we will have no purpose. I'm not saying that rape and child abuse is a good thing, I'm saying that taking away our outlets like movies and fiction would be irresponsible and wouldn't hurt just rapists and murderers, but all of us.

[crash]

GreenWizard brings up a valid point. I am not defending pedophilia, but showing how opinions change. People base their opinions on two things,

1) What they've been taught

2) Their own experience

People today have been taught that sex between adults and those under 18 yrs of age is wrong, and it's illegal in most places. What Greenwizard brings up is correct. Up until the early part of the 20th Century, it was acceptable to marry someone under the age of 18. I'm not sure, but I don't think there was an actual 'Age of Majority' at that time anyways. Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 yr old cousin when he was 23. It caused quite a scandal, but it was legal. That was in the mid Fifties. If you go further back, you'll find that people were married off and having kids before they were 18. Mostly because you if you lived to 40 you were 'ancient', but that's where this stems from. For the first few millennia of human life, you were lucky to make it that far. As science improved the quality of life, and life expectancy started to increase, society changed the definitions of what was right and what was illegal or immoral.

So getting back to my original point, for most people writing on this thread, what they've been taught is that sex between adults and children is squicky.

Through their own experience, most don't have any with adults being in an accepted relationship with someone under 18. Because of this, they can only base their opinion on what they've been taught. If they were to do some research into their family tree, they would probably find someone who got married under 18. I'm fairly certain my grandmother was 17 when she married my 22 yr old grandfather. They'd been married for 52 yrs when he passed. They were married in the 1920's. If they didn't, what do you think the chances of my sitting here typing away are?

To wrap up. Society wasn't always like this. It has changed over the years and will continue to change. What is acceptable now, may not be 10 or 15 years down the road.

[TheBlackadder]

(I just started reading this topic today, so if I missed something, please don't break out the torches and pitchforks!!)

In one of my stories, "A Marriage To A Fine Woman" there are a couple of scenes between Norrington and my original character who is underage. Of course Norrington being more then Twice her age, it does have a tendency to raise eyebrows, but it's not just simply there for shock value, or for pornographic reasons. It's relevant to the story.

The very first time they are 'together', some people might consider it rape if they aren't reading it in the context of the story, or the circumstances surrounding it. If you take it out of context then of course it's going to seem absolutely grotesque, pointless and there for nothing more then kicks. Sometimes you have to read the whole story (Or at least the events leading up to that particular event) to understand what's going on or you'll misinterpret the whole thing.

HOWEVER . . . . yeah I’ve seen the other stuff were it’s just blatant . . . child porn. Where from the child’s perspective it would be nothing but a nightmare come true. That sort of stuff makes me angry. Perhaps it wouldn’t effect me so much if I didn’t have a 9 year old niece that I’ve raised since she was born, but anything that puts children in a situation that they should never be put in, and protected from . . . that isn’t even entertainment.

~Marian The Blackadder~

[shinigamiinochi]

I think that there is a huge difference between writing about children and writing about those that are underaged. I live in Massachusetts and I don't know about laws in other states or countries, but here, if you're under sixteen, you're underaged. I read and write a lot of Gundam Wing fanfiction, but the boys (if you follow the official guides) are fifteen, so if you write them from the point of where the series is, you're writing about underaged sex/relationships. This doesn't seem to bother anyone, but if you write about child sex, it's a lot different. It's interesting how we can assume that one age group is more adept at handling sex than another. I'm not talking about a child, but the supposed difference between a fifteen year old and a sixteen year old. Though, I suppose this could be expanded to children too. We assume that children are incapable of dealing with sex, but just like with teenagers, not all children are the same. My cousin Andrea is seventeen and still has problems dealing with sex, but my cousin, Yuki, and I knew all about sex when we were nine and we didn't have some sort of juvenile break down, we understood that it was an adult thing, but that it was still important for us to understand how it worked and why it wasn't a good thing for kids our age to be involved with. I'm not saying that getting a child involved with sex is a good thing because they are mature for their age, but neither is coddling them. My mom and I never talked about sex when I was growing up, hell, I'll be turning 21 this week and we still have never talked about it. She treats sex like this abnormal, disgusting thing, so when I'm around her, I can never talk about it. If it weren't for my older cousin who did have the talk with me, I'd probably be confused about it, not the mechanics, but the general attitude. It's never a good thing to give a child the impression that something like that is wrong and when you hesitate to give a child an honest answer, it makes them even more curious and makes them think that you are hiding something, or at least that was my impression of my parents when I was little. When I was ten, I was reading a book that used the word 'virgin'. When I asked my dad what that meant, he just said that it was someone who was not an adult. I went around for years thinking that that was the truth, so when I found out the real meaning, I was pretty pissed off. If I hadn't known what sex was and had read about it or seen it on tv, because of my parents' inabilities to talk to me about it, I would have been curious and tried to look it up online, which would have been a very, very bad idea. I also think that it is terrible that we have such a bad habit of lying to our kids. So, when my cousin told my mom he was never going to do that to his daughter, and she started to nag at him about it, I obviously got very angry. Yes, he's talked about sex with her. She's three, but she watches nature shows all the time, so she understands that sex is something that is required to make children, she just has no idea what is really involved. He told her that it was just something that happens when you get older, like a growthspurt, where you have urges, but just like the urge to eat a ton of ice cream late at night, it's not a good idea to do it unless you are completely ready for it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that writing about children in sexual situations and getting off on it is kind of gross, but treating kids like they're incapable of understanding or trying to wrap them up with bubble wrap until they're in their twenties is pretty irresponsible. Sorry about the rant, my mom's been screaming at my dad for the past hour and I needed to do something to block out the noise without directing her anger towards me and I can't concentrate on writing fanfiction with screaming in the background.

[greenwizard]

I wish my parents wouldn't have been such prudes. Hell my mom was 16 when she got pregnant with me. And would you like to know why? My grandparents, the rich prudish snobs that they are, didn't think it was proper to teach their teenage daughter about sex. So she goes to Italy for a summer and meets a local boy who um... gave her a souveneir....

Parents spend too much time trying to censor everybody else and don't pay enough attention to the kids they are trying to protect. If parents would actually stop spending all their time trying to make everything squeaky clean and actually like talked to their own kids... this world would be a much better place.