Disturbing Cliche Patterns

[Guest MayNeuma]

I don't know whether this is the right place to post this or not. Please feel free to move or delete (if necessary). Currently, I'm obsessed, it's an understatement (really), with Naruto. Manga and anime. To the point that I'm getting sick just by reading the same thing over and over again. This happens not only on the Site-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named but also on AFF. Just say, the most obvious one is plot. It's like 70-80% of Naruto fic there are about High School [AU] timeline. With Sasuke as the big bad ass and Naruto as the tormented wimpy outcast. They meet, fight, become rivals, then in the end Sasuke saves Naruto's ass. THAT is not what's happening in the anime people. Just because Sasuke's uber sexy, hot, and cold-heartedly mysterious doesn't mean he IS superior to Naruto. And just because of Naruto grew up alone that doesn't mean he's weak with no backbone or wimpy //UKE// and cries all the time. Infact, I can see him support the rest of the ninja in his generation to become stronger. I can't imagine what the series will be like if he grew up in another village.

Which led to the second problem, the pairing. 99.99% of Naruto yaoi fic put Naruto as the ultimate uke which needs to be saved or chased by Sasuke, Gaara, Neji, Itachi, Iruka, Kakashi, heck even Jiraiya. TRUE he WAS the smallest and cutest one and FYI guys, I do NOT have problems at all with YAOI *points at sig* or Naruto becomes the UKE. But cut people some slack please. Just because the readers want to have more fun, some writers add other or a few seme to chase after Naruto in the middle of the story which make the perfectly built plot in the beginning shatter. I find it disturbingly weird when I read A and B have nothing more than friendship suddenly A gets jealous of B for being a loverbird with another. Just because to HAVE the fun factor. Or worse some authors have alternate endings with different pairings. I'm not prejudicing or picking on those who had written such stories. But to note it down, we, all writers and I, can NOT make everyone happy. A person needs not only love life but also friends and family. Plus focusing too much on love department will impair the rest of story's development. That's why I salute those who wrote angst, not putting a vote for whatever pairings should be in, and //esc// don't change their story even though reviews beg them to do so.

And lastly, the situation that Naruto is in. Most of Naruto Dark fic describe him as an insanely-strong-kid. I extremely agree that Naruto has one of the biggest potentials compare to the rest of his age. However, it's still pretty impossible for him at the age of 12 to beat one of the strongest ninja known, namely Orochimaru or Akatsuki. One, those elder ninjas have a heck LOTS more experience than Naruto. Two, they have more people on their side not too mention Jutsus knowledge as well. It just doesn't make sense imo.

Notice that I'm not ranting about grammar and OC. Because I realized it very well that some Naruto fic which have TONS of OCs are outstanding. Also, my grammar is NOT good thus I have a beta for my fic. There's no hidden purpose from this rant other than trying to motivate authors' creativity and originality. I'm sorry if I offend anyone or make any typos, etc. Thanks for reading //and replying//

[Guest Big Samurai]

Naruto is a very young fandom. Because of that, it is still establishing what I call the patterns. Every fandom has 'em! Naruto is uke? Pattern. Sasuke is seme? Pattern. Naruto becomes the biggest badass in spite of being the smallest ninja? Pattern.

Every fandom develops its own customs and traditions, its patterns. Why does this occur? Simple. You know the AFF philosophy. Customs and traditions exist to be broken and warped. Too often, anime fandoms become rather set in their ways, so ... once it is established exactly what those ways are, it falls to incoming authors to change 'em and mix 'em up. It keeps things fresh and interesting.

As for the 'AU high school' thing, that is a problem that has become endemic to many fandoms. I have seen it in Fire Emblem. (I first saw it in Tekken quite a while ago.) It is especially common in anime / manga fandoms with school-age characters ... like Naruto. As for what to do about it, the Site That Cannot Be Named has set up a system -- for LOTR, though it could easily be extended -- that divides such 'alternate' stories from those that are more canon. Giving AU its own sub-section in each fandom where it occurs might be a little extreme for the time being, though. Best to see how that trend grows and develops.

Thank you for supporting OCs, too. (Those are my specialty.) It is possible to put OCs in a story and not have them be bad self-insertions. ... In fact, if you know of such stories for Naruto, I might like to see them. You never know when you might bump into a like-minded writer.

[Guest Selenity Jade]

All major fandoms have their cliches, actually. *sigh* DBZ does even though it kind of died, Sailor Moon, Inuyasha, Naruto, anything that has a large following, because then it starts to attract the younger members as well, which is where you get the High School (and College also) cliches, which isn't just a Naruto phenomonon, that one happens in every major fanfiction fandom I've seen.

Not to mention, people start with an idea, and they don't bother to check to see if someone else does it first, but that isn't really a problem for me, since I don't mind repeats of themes because chances are, the majority of them I don't want to read, while there are a few good versions of that theme that definitely make the story worth the read, so I try not to be too picky.

Besides, in a huge fandom, eventually writers run out of ideas and they just end up with the same ones that others have thought of, because the ideas have been covered. Or they go and decide they want to write a High School fic, or whichever, because they want their own version of it.

Personally, as a writer, especially in the DBZ fandom, I LIKE to take the cliche themes and screw around with them. ; It made it fun. I write fanfiction for fun mostly, not for perfection and originality, but I took it as a challenge to myself. I would take a well-used cliche and twist it Jade-style to make something very original. Or I flatter myself saying that. ; But I also try to come up with different stuff too.

But if you read any other major fandom, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Inuyasha, DBZ, Star Trek, you'll see the patterns and cliche's, and a lot of them follow from fandom to fandom, to become a universal cliche.

Example, any fandom that employs non-humans (like demons in Inuyasha, aliens in DBZ, or anything with a beastial type non-human), you'll get something about biting. It's girls with a vampire fetish and they just keep moving fandoms. I'm guilty of it myself, way back before it was common place. I read Anita Blake for heavens sake. So I try to avoid it now. ;

[Guest Big Samurai]

Since you are a DBZ writer, Ms. Selenity, how many times do you think Vegeta has broken the gravity machine? I swear that I see that in almost every 'fic in that fandom. I find it funny. ... You have had him break it a few times, haven't you?

It is true that there are universal clichés, many of which need to be retired. If they are universal, if they can be seen everywhere, it seems rather silly to see them in fanfic, which is supposed to be a niche. I, too, write this stuff for fun (at AFF, at least, which lends itself to fun), but ... looking for the new and the different is always a plus.

[Guest Kettricken]

I feel much the same. That's why I don't really read Naruto fiction anymore. I've found a couple really awesome stories but that's it.

And I've noticed that too. I don't read yaoi fiction--but in the het fiction--Sasuke is always this terrible rapist and Sakura always has to run to Naruto or Kakashi or *insert desired male character*. Granted, Sakura is weak and useless but it seems as though there isn't many attempts to give her a personality other than a bimbo (which is why I'm looking forward to the time-jump--because there she's actually pretty freakin' awesome).

[Guest Akimoto]

the other thing that is a tiresome ciche is the pairings. i'm always lookin for rare pairings, and most of the time not findin em ;. i'm not dissin the ciched pairings ill read it if it catches my intrest otherwise im like 'bleh.' and move on.

[Guest Amerowolf]

The thing that really bothers me about Cliches is that they overshadow great stories with a rarely seen, yet equally intriguing pairings. There's a reason why the Search page is my best friend on AFF

Most people, however, don't use it. So they never get to see a great story about...Neji/Itachi for example because they don't have the patience to click through pages. I've really stopped going into the Naruto section. I check now and then for good new stories, but mostly all I see is Sasuke/Naruto. Or a Naruto/Gaara where Gaara plays the weak crying kid who completely blurts out his problems.

[Guest BrucesGirl]

I am a huge fan of Naruto, and only recently, I've been authoring a couple of Yaoi fics. The two one shots I have for Naruto are both Zabuza/Haku which to me are a cannon pair.

To me, Naruto is a normal boy with a vary extraordinary life. He's the same really as all the other kids. He wants love. He wants to be noticed, and he wants to be important. Sex isn't on his list of 'to-do's. However, if I were to be asked if I saw him as uke or seme, I think I would have to say seme and this is why:

Naruto, although a dorky, immature, cocky little brat (doncha just love him) desires to control his life since he's not been able to control it this far. I think that he would exert that power sexually since he COULD control that with his strength.

But then again, it depends on the pairing.

[Guest Akimoto]

amen to what brucegirl jsut said about nauto! but if nauto is seme or uke also depends on how the author sees him. I my self be leave you can be seme, on top or bottem. by that i mean you control the action either way .

[Guest Houseki]

I agree with Akimoto on seme being who is in control, not who is on top or bottom.

I just recently started my own Naruto fic, and it starts of very different, but I do bring it back to "high school" but I have some tricks up my sleeve that not even my beta knows about yet. Naruto, Sasuke, and Gaara are my fav pairings, and they can be mixed and matched in any way and I'd find it appealing. So not enough Gaa/Sas fics out there.

My story will envolve all three interacting with one another at some point, and at times I do look back at my story and say "this is becoming cliche'" but, sometimes you can't help it to get to where you want. I like action/adventure stories, and even though mine is AU, set in present time in America, there will be true action (in a fighting sense, not sex ) coming up within the next chapter or two. It's all about the setup ^__^

Anyways, on about Naruto always being uke and the snivveling lil baby..hate it. Naruto is a strong character with much will and conviction. He's spontaneous, works with what he's got, and I will say he is a pretty emotional guy (which i think is where most ficka's get carried away with and turn him uke). Sasuke in a way should be the more weak one, who has to use revenge and betrayal to make him more powerful. Naruto uses his love for his village and friends to strengthen himself.

All in all, cliche stories have gotten out of hand, but it really depends on the ficka on how well the story is written and what the true motivation of it is other than getting naruto in bed with someone..or any random character with some other random character.

And on that note, I bid you all a goodnight..or.um..good morning ^__^

[Guest DeathPirate]

Naruto has some SERIOUS issues with cliches. I could go on for ages about high schools (WHY?!) or suddenly helpful demon foxes and all that.

At least a few threesome fics are appearing now. I was wondering just HOW long it would take before people would look underneath the underneath so to speak...

I mean 'pairings' - pshaw! That's almost like a cliche in it's own right. Does the notion of marriage even exist in the Naruto world?

[foeofthelance]

I don't know how about how bad the fox cliche would be. That actually seems to fit with canon, and to a limited extent the nature of fox spirits/demons. (I am the first to admit I have little knowledge here.) As far as I know they have always been pranksters/tricksters and what better way to annoy people to then to have the shrimp bust open in the middle of the battle and wreak havoc with some one's very delicate plans? The only reason it doesnt do it more often is a) it ruins the fun and Naruto doesnt have enough control over the chakras the fox is bound in. Give it five years story wise, and it wouldnt matter. Naruto would have enough control to brute force any situation he got in.

[Guest Truten4]

Exactly, there are too many 'Sasuke is bad' and not enough 'Naruto kicks ass'. I mean, clearly Naruto is the main character and the most powerful (not to say best) ninja in the series, so why are all these, kick-ass Sasuke fics out there. Show some support for the under-fox here!

[Guest DeathPirate]

There are Sasuke kick-ass fics?! Man do people have different perspectives on things. I've lost track of all the fics where Narutos gone of to train for X years and comes back all badass and mocks Sasuke.

Well, some of them are good I guess.

foeofthelance - the latest manga is showing otherwise...

[Guest ladygizarme]

there are a helluva lot of cliche naruto fics... and in any popular fandom really... pretty much unendingly so, and it is getting rather tiresome, which is why, especially lately, i've been skipping around to a few diff fandoms when for awhile naruto was my main reading interest..

yet still, there are a lot of fics with cliche premise, that are still really good, and a lot that i still come back for more.. the characterizations, interactions, dialogue, and twists to make the cliche its own story apart from the other cliche stories, pull me in..

still, it would be nice to see something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT... but i can't suggest what, cuz if i had an idea i'd write it myself (or at least write the outline for it and get to it after i finish one of my current projects )

alot of cliche pairings out there as well, yes, and i admit i still am drawn to them (naru/sasu/naru, naru/gaa/naru, naru/gaa/sasu *cough* and i'm all about switching roles rather than conforming to concrete seme/uke roles..), but something diff in that aspect is fun and refreshing as well...

..and on that note...

*whips houseki* curse you and your teasy "tricks up my sleeve not even my beta knows about yet" ..come on, i told you some of MY secrets!!! (most in fact *sniffles*) come ON!! ONEGAIII!! *whips houseki more* and btw, you still owe me (and your readers lol) the rest of that last chap woman, get to it *gets the riding crop* i'm gonna smack your hands everytime i see them goin to the forums or story pages or anything else instead of writing!! *smacks* no! bad houseki! bad girl!!

<.<

>.>

<.<

...heh, i'm one to talk

aaaaanyway, back to the topic at hand with another comment on seme/uke/sasuke/naruto: indeed, that is probably worse to me than the new-york-roach-like amounts of AU-highschool fics..

one: why, to be uke, does one need to assume the role of whiny lil crybaby that needs saving?? why, to be seme, does one need to be a complete asshole??

two: how can you see/read naruto and feel okay portraying him that way?? always weak, always submissive???? he may get emotional, but he's a strong kid/guy, and not just physically... if anything SASUKE is the more emotional one, even if naruto does "cry" more in the anime.. (being emotional doesn't mean you necessarily hafta show it externally.. we all know the heavy shit sasuke CONSTANTLY has on his mind..) and ok, sasuke can be a *bit* of an ass but we know where that comes from, ne, and the underlying tones there can be used so much better.. (i mean really! naruto and sasuke have BOTH been through some crazy shit people..)

three: why do their sexual roles need to be so concrete? taking both of their personalities into account, i think they'd both want to/insist on dominating at least half the time ^__~

BTW, brucegirl, what's your author name? have i read your fics yet?? i NEED some zabuza/haku!! i *love* them, it's totally canon!!

[Guest omnichild]

Fanfictions are usually written for fun. Like cosplay is done for fun. The reason most people probably go AU is because it is a FANfiction. They want to see things they know they will never see in the real thing. For example a highschool setting or slash etc. Plus it is also fun to write the characters ooc because they then become slightly your creation. You are just borrowing the name and back story. And also, you have to remember that none of the fanfictions writers do not own the rights to Naruto and did not create Naruto. And while they may have read every manga and watched every episode of the anime. It does not mean they have a true feel for how Naruto and company really act in certain situations. For example in most of the mpreg fics, Naruto is very angsty and whiney. We are not shown in the anime/manga him being pregnant. (because that would not happen.) And thusly we can make him angsty and whiney in that situation. Based on the fact that most pregnant women are angsty anyway.

[Guest DeathPirate]

Based on the fact that most pregnant women are angsty anyway.

I'd love to see your scientific studies proving this fact.

[Guest omnichild]

Don't need scientific findings. I have been pregnant and have been around plenty of pregnant friends and family members. Pregnant women are angsty, bitchy and moody.

[Guest DeathPirate]

It is still a disturbing cliche pattern. How does your knowledge relate to (underage?) pregnant males? Your belief is that anyone who is pregnant automatically becomes angsty and whiny, but would this truly apply to everyone? Maybe ninjas become pregnant ALL THE TIME and just get over it rather than moping around?

[Guest Lady Dragon]

When it comes to male pregnacy fics in the Naruto fandom I have just taken to skipping over them completely now. They're all cliched and completely unrealistic. At first the idea of Naruto using the sexy no jutsu and having it back fire or the Kyuubi interfering was an interesting idea. And I admit, I read and enjoyed the fics immensely. Now there is just an over abundance of such fanfictions and the idea behind them is just spread a little too thin for my liking. I'll give the writers of such fics some credit though, Naruto isn't the only one getting knocked up now *rolls eyes* suddenly Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi are copying Naruto's technique and Shikamaru and Chouji are perverts.

When people warp the attitudes and very essence of a character until they are no longer recognizable as themselves all in the name of making said character fit into their story frustrates me to no end. What is the point of writing a fanfiction if the characters and setting used are no longer recognizable as the characters you love?

That said I also cannot stand self-insertions, which apparently seem to be trying to take over all fandoms. And, as previously mentioned in this thread, I abhor the AU Highschool setting. I won't even go into how stereotypical and cliched those stories are.

[Guest omnichild]

I am not saying that it isn't a disturbing cliche pattern. I am just pointing out reasons for it.

Though I am curious as to why it is almost always the kyuubi's fault for it. I think I have only read one fiction where Naruto used his sexy no jutsu slept with someone and then got pregnant that. Unfortunately he still really only became pregnant in the story because the kyuubi decided it wanted to reproduce. How female like does Naruto get when he does the jutsu? Let's dissect him!

[Guest DeathPirate]

Self-Insertion is far from a new thing. It's probably the oldest form of fanfiction there is.

It is true that they're getting to be everywhere, can't be assed to read them these days, but there are some old self-insertion fics which I do respect.

[Guest xax]

I think I'd blame the AU "High School" fics for a whole lot of the fandom still being in high school and that once a few people wrote those kind of fics it kind of caught on and spread to the rest of the fandom. Ditto, kind of, with the "You" fics (although the Naruto fandom doesn't have very many of those).

There are always the generic seme/uke fics (seriously, Naruto's a spitfire and it'll probably only get worse-- he wouldn't be 'uke' just because he's blond (or short)), but that's really a problem that plagues the whole yaoi fandom.

And then of course the two big fandom-specific ones: Sexy no Jutsu mpreg and "The fox talks to Naruto a lot" (which I myself have been guilty of writing). The former doesn't make much sense (I mean, not only would they have to hold the jutsu for nine months and through the pain of childbirth, but also I was under the impression it was an illusion anyway) and the latter goes against some of the main storytelling premises of the series (although not in a terribly dramatic way, it just takes away some of the dramatic effect when the giant roaring destructive evil turns out to be a sarcastic fox).

[Guest Lady Dragon]

I think I'd blame the AU "High School" fics for a whole lot of the fandom still being in high school and that once a few people wrote those kind of fics it kind of caught on and spread to the rest of the fandom. Ditto, kind of, with the "You" fics (although the Naruto fandom doesn't have very many of those).

There are always the generic seme/uke fics (seriously, Naruto's a spitfire and it'll probably only get worse-- he wouldn't be 'uke' just because he's blond (or short)), but that's really a problem that plagues the whole yaoi fandom.

And then of course the two big fandom-specific ones: Sexy no Jutsu mpreg and "The fox talks to Naruto a lot" (which I myself have been guilty of writing). The former doesn't make much sense (I mean, not only would they have to hold the jutsu for nine months and through the pain of childbirth, but also I was under the impression it was an illusion anyway) and the latter goes against some of the main storytelling premises of the series (although not in a terribly dramatic way, it just takes away some of the dramatic effect when the giant roaring destructive evil turns out to be a sarcastic fox).

I agree, it does take away from the series when Kyuubi is no longer a frightening fox demon but just a sarcastic companion in Naruto's head.

That brings to mind another cliche that I've seen springing up lately. Motherly/Paternal Kyuubi. For whatever the "reason" despite everything that happened in the series suddenly Kyuubi is this over protective pet fox (for lack of a better description) who watches out and cares for Naruto and goes so far as to recomend mates for him.

I'm guilty of reading a few fics were the Kyuubi takes on a less threatening role. That event is brought about though by a change in circumstances which force Kyuubi to restrain himself or something drastic that alters his ideas of Naruto and causes the Kyuubi to respect him. Such fics are typically multi-chaptered (I'm talking 10+ chapters of considerable length) and the change is definately not wrought over night but is instead slowly and gradually developed. In other words it makes sense. But when the fic starts off with nice Kyuubi or what have you with no logical explanantion, well that just doesn't make any sense.

[Guest xax]

I agree, it does take away from the series when Kyuubi is no longer a frightening fox demon but just a sarcastic companion in Naruto's head.

That brings to mind another cliche that I've seen springing up lately. Motherly/Paternal Kyuubi. For whatever the "reason" despite everything that happened in the series suddenly Kyuubi is this over protective pet fox (for lack of a better description) who watches out and cares for Naruto and goes so far as to recomend mates for him. 

I'm guilty of reading a few fics were the Kyuubi takes on a less threatening role. That event is brought about though by a change in circumstances which force Kyuubi to restrain himself or something drastic that alters his ideas of Naruto and causes the Kyuubi to respect him. Such fics are typically multi-chaptered (I'm talking 10+ chapters of considerable length) and the change is definately not wrought over night but is instead slowly and gradually developed. In other words it makes sense. But when the fic starts off with nice Kyuubi or what have you with no logical explanantion, well that just doesn't make any sense.

I do prefer a more 'kitsune' (which is to say, has a range of behaviour between "highly polite" to "blowing up towns") Nine-tails, even though the series seems to be pointing mostly towards the blowing-up-towns side of the spectrum. But I still realize that it'd have to be done with a lot of skill to keep it with the same kind of feeling as the animanga, or even in character.

But when someone writes fic about how the Nine-tails is really Naruto's animal companion that was controlled by evil forces to attack Konoha and it's really a big cute kind fluffy fox... no. I mean, c'mon guys. I think that same fic had Sasuke get a dragon pokemon companion, too.