New Banner On Aff

[NightScribe]

As anyone bouncing around the forum or main AFF site may have noticed, there's a new banner floating around out there. In fact, I'm looking at it even now. And I just wanted to say that I fully support the admins and applaud their continued efforts to keep the site safe and in existence for those of us who use it responsibly.

[polywolly]

Here-here! *raises pint of ale*

NightScribe, you should know that your To-do list does not impinge upon mine. I have Snape in the morning and Lucius in the afternoon, so no harm done.

[Guest yamsham]

Um...has anyone at AFF actually read COPA? Out of curiosity, I just did.

(1) Defense.--It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the defendant, in good faith, has restricted access by minors to material that is harmful to minors --

( A ) by requiring use of a credit card, debit account, adult access code, or adult personal identification number;

( B ) by accepting a digital certificate that verifies age;

or

( C )by any other reasonable measures that are feasible under available technology.

Please note that it doesn't say a page of quasi-legalese is an affirmative defense against prosecution. Why doesn't AFF use HKey or SKey or whatever the hell they call it?

Oh shit. By not using, "reasonable measures" under "available technology," if AFF was prosecuted, would that make me and everyone else...an accomplice?

[Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi]

Um...has anyone at AFF actually read COPA? Out of curiosity, I just did.

Please note that it doesn't say a page of quasi-legalese is an affirmative defense against prosecution. Why doesn't AFF use HKey or SKey or whatever the hell they call it?

Oh shit. By not using, "reasonable measures" under "available technology," if AFF was prosecuted, would that make me and everyone else...an accomplice?

I think it does... which makes me edgy.

[Guest yamsham]

^Well, no, probably not. That was a stupid over-reaction on my part, and I apologize for it. But the other point still applies. A block of text telling people to, essentially, "do the right thing" is no defense according to the law. It's a band-aid, and a poorly applied one at that. Only the people who want to post stories will ever run into it and experience their moment (perhaps a mili-second, if that) of ethical struggle.

But what about the minors who only read the stories? Isn't that just as bad in the eyes of the law? The truth is there is nothing AFF can do to prevent that...short of shutting down or limiting the scope of the archive to G-rated Tele-Tubbies fanfics (which I think everyone would agree are not options).

What's wrong with using H-Key (or again, whatever the hell it's called; I know very little about it beyond the basics) to block minors from browing AFF? It wouldn't stop every kid, of course. Some of them would figure out a way around it, steal their parent's credit card or something. But according to COPA, AFF couldn't be held accountable for that because it had done everything it could with the existing technology to prevent it. I doubt the authorities would consider appealing to people's better natures a "good faith" effort.

Has anyone at AFF ever seriously considered using one of those "key" things?

[Guest Melody Fate]

There's more than just Hkey. There's VerifyMe and a few other companies. I did some checking into it. I think VerifyMe is the one I liked best, because it didn't require a credit card and it also didn't require that the folks at AFF would know our information, it goes through a third party who checks the ID numbers and makes sure the person is of age. It's not that I don't trust AFF, I do, it's more that I'd just rather keep my offline and online lives separate. Of course, I also noticed that none of these places I found gave out a price for this. It could end up being quite expensive and it might even require a monthly fee.

Of course, the problem is, as has been pointed out, that kids will find a way around it. I remember one forum I used to go to, someone would regularly post passwords and all such to get into certain sites. "This one will work!"

A way around that is to only allow one account per registration. Meaning that when you plugged in your ID number, you were allowed one account. And of course, you make it so you have to be signed into an account to do anything here, read stories or submit. Hopefully, that would keep out a lot of "Here's my Dad's ID, go ahead and use it!"

But what about the minors who only read the stories? Isn't that just as bad in the eyes of the law?

Yes and in some cases, may even be considered worse. If a kid is writing adult stories, then clearly they understand something that maybe they shouldn't, but the fact still remains that they have enough of an understanding to write about it.

When you talk about reading adult material, then it looks like the writer/archivist is all in the wrong. The defense being, "My child was innocent, until he/she read that filth!"

That's why it really gets me when people point out that they lurked about this site before they turned 18, and then justify it by saying, "But all I did was read!" Following that logic you might as well say, "Well, it's okay to drink before you're 21, just don't manufacture any alcohol."

You can't go into a store and buy a playboy/playgirl before you're eighteen. What makes people think that AFF won't get into any trouble as long as all the minors only read the stuff, not write it?

[Guest DarkAvenger]

First, yes, we've all read it... ad nausium... TRUST ME. *falls over dead*

Second, we've been looking into a lot of options and here's what all we've run head-first into a brick wall because of.

1. Companies that check drivers licence ID numbers

- Most of these companies only check one or two finite databases. Thus, some of our visitors from overseas are left out 100%, even if they do have a drivers license.

- There are some places in this world, that do not require a drivers license in order to drive, all of those people are left out as well.

- I know a good deal of people around 50 or so (and a whole other group in their late 20's) that, while living in the USA, do not have drivers licences. Yet, they actively read fanfiction on our site and I know for a fact that 2 of those are well over 18. (They are my fiance's older brothers.) So, that leaves all of them out and would tell them to get the heck off our site cause they can't or won't drive.

2. Companies that check credit card numbers for age verification

- Again, groups of people who have no credit card, but are over 18.

- Groups of people, like my father, who WILL NOT, under any circumstances, give their credit card number online.

- Most of these companies charge the user a "one time fee" of $1, which they say will be recredited to you after verification. (Guess who has been ripped off of more than one dollar? That's right, me. In fact, I even had credit card fraud occur directly after using one of these companies, that was in excess of $3000 and took months to sort out.)

3. One company that we looked into with the drivers licence thing said that every user was charged 50 cents per transaction and that WE would be charged a "one time fee per user" of $1.00. (50,000+ users, we run the site based on donations and what little our advertisers pay us... you do the math. Out of business in under a month anybody? In debt up to our eyeballs anybody?)

4. A legal (drawn up by a lawyer) html page (birthdateverifier) that basically "should" legally bind the person entering thier birthdate.

- Issue? Oh... I dunno, how about the guy is charging over $600 for it and we don't have that kind of money? We're just barely making the monthly payments to Nexcess currently.

- $1,500 (or was it $15,000... I don't remember how many zeros... too many for me) to get the lawyer on retainer and he will represent us in court if it comes to that. Otherwise, he makes no guarantees that his html page will hold up in court or anything else, just that it hasn't had to be tried in court.

5. Scripting that covers all story pages and requires you to say you are over 18 before you can see any part of the page and it leaves you with a 24 hour cookie in your browser.

- A few of our moderators will settle for no less than the "legal" html page mentioned in #4 above. Therefore, this, and all other options besides #4, are not "good enough" unless some full-blown company will legally swear they will "take the fall" for us if their software fails to keep a minor out.

Thus, if anyone has $600 to give us, knows where to get a free $600, or knows a company and/or lawyer willing to "take the blame" if whatever we use doesn't keep a minor out, please, for the love of god, tell us. *gets down on knees and begs*

[Guest DarkAvenger]

Also, as far as I know, only aff would be held responsible, not the authors on the site. At least that's what I've been getting the impression of from all the research I've done for aff and for my own site.

[Guest yamsham]

Second, we've been looking into a lot of options and here's what all we've run head-first into a brick wall because of...

Oh my. LOL at "existing technology." No one mentioned that it's prohibitively expensive! A $50,000 fee? Oh yeah, that'll happen. Want a kidney, too? And as for the others, I'm such a schmuck. Here I'm thinking in terms of a laser-sighted sniper rifle when they actually have the accuracy of a blunderbuss. I guess under the circumstances, AFF is doing all it can. At least it's making an effort. That has to account for something.

[Guest Serenanna]

- I know a good deal of people around 50 or so (and a whole other group in their late 20's) that, while living in the USA, do not have drivers licences. Yet, they actively read fanfiction on our site and I know for a fact that 2 of those are well over 18. (They are my fiance's older brothers.) So, that leaves all of them out and would tell them to get the heck off our site cause they can't or won't drive.

This is true, and not so true. States can issue state ID's to people who don't drive. They look exactly like a driver's license. I got one so I could vote/drink/be a legal bad girl since there's no way in hell I was ever getting behind the wheel (disabled). The down side is some states charge you. I don't think I got charged as a PA citizen, but my friend in WA had to get one recently for ID for a state college, and their DMV charged her $20.

Still, it can be hard for some people to go through all that just to read smut.

Sere

[Guest Melody Fate]

This is true, and not so true. States can issue state ID's to people who don't drive. They look exactly like a driver's license. I got one so I could vote/drink/be a legal bad girl since there's no way in hell I was ever getting behind the wheel (disabled). The down side is some states charge you. I don't think I got charged as a PA citizen, but my friend in WA had to get one recently for ID for a state college, and their DMV charged her $20.

Still, it can be hard for some people to go through all that just to read smut.

Sere

I don't think charging is all that bad, considering I have to pay 30 dollars every six years for my drivers license. And that fee doesn't cover any road expenses, it's just for the ID itself.

In my state, you get a separate number for your ID/License number. Another state I lived in they used your SS number for your license number instead. If places still do that, then I would imagine a company might be able to check the data base for SS numbers. Since SS numbers must record the date of birth, it should also be able to tell you if this person is of age or not. '

Good thing about an SS system (At least in USA) is that pretty much everyone has one. You can't really function well in the USA without one. In fact, you can't even get a passport or license (other valid form of ID) without first having an SS number.

I have no idea of other countries have something like an SS number.

Risk to this are, of course, some folks will be nervous at giving out their SS number. I can't really blame them.

But it seems like no matter what solutions AFF comes up with, they take the risk of alienating certain groups of people. I've mentioned I would be really reluctant to put in a credit card number. Others might feel reluctant about any form of ID number. No matter what, for stronger security, AFF risks losing some members. Of course, some of these members might be minors, which would be good, but some will be legal adults.

I'd be curious to know what Literotica and the ASSM website do. Because all I see on those is a "I agree I'm of legal age" to get in.

[Guest DarkAvenger]

I'd be curious to know what Literotica and the ASSM website do. Because all I see on those is a "I agree I'm of legal age" to get in.

I know that, I, for one, would NOT give my SSN to aff or any "verification" company, under ANY circumstances. (The back of the blasted thing even says "do not give this number out" blah blah blah.) In fact, I was whole-heartedly against giving it to my university every single time I wanted to log in. Thankfully, they've changed that after much bitching and whining on mine and a great lot of other people's part and now use some randomly generated 17 digit number instead.

As for what Literotica does... nada, zip, zilch, nothing. I signed up and that was that. Nothing but what we have already and if you can direct link into a story, you're in the free and clear from what I saw. *shrug*

[Guest Melody Fate]

I know that, I, for one, would NOT give my SSN to aff or any "verification" company, under ANY circumstances. (The back of the blasted thing even says "do not give this number out" blah blah blah.)

Yet, I have to give it to every single employer that has ever hired me. In fact, I have to now let them take a photocopy of it, along with my drivers licenes as proof I'm legally allowed to work in the USA. Hell, before I even get a job, when I'm filling out an application, I have to give them my SS number so they can check on it.

Ironic isn't it?

As for what Literotica does... nada, zip, zilch, nothing. I signed up and that was that. Nothing but what we have already and if you can direct link into a story, you're in the free and clear from what I saw. *shrug*

Oh, I knew what they did, but I wasn't sure if they had another way to protect themselves behind the scenes, such as maybe they were hosted by a server that was in a country where they just didn't care.

That's part of the problem when anyone tries to police the internet, it's not held to the laws and standards of only one nation. I remember way back when, they tried to pass regulations about porn sites and several porn sites just moved to servers in South Africa.