This is why I'm not religious

[Psychostorm]

I'm not Catholic, or even religious, but isn't that the kind of thinking that causes problems in the first place? Someone thinks a certain way of thinking or doing something is wrong and should be eliminated and then wars start...

Well the thing is, I think peace between nations, religions and other such major ideological differences is a pipe dream. Striving for unrealistic dreams leads only to problems and suffering. I'd rather take a pragmatic approach and simply eliminate those unwilling to fall in line and support the greater good. And by looking at history we can tell that religion, or even allowing it to exist, is detrimental to humanity. So it must be eliminated.

This whole, "Lets get along and love one another" way of thinking looks good on paper but it is totally against human nature. It will always be "us vs them". Humans will always carry such a mentality if left to their own devices. They are all sheep and when liars dangle the promise of "eternal life" in front of them, they become blood thristy beasts, bigots, racists, hypocrites, hate-mongers, and everything terrible that is apart of human nature.

So basically you think that killing off a religious group will make the world better? Isn't that, word for word, what Hitler preached? I am one of those people that thinks poorly of religious institutions, but they're not all bad. Yes, I'm an atheist, but what about all those Christian groups that go out and help the poor? Just because you have religion, does not make you an asshole. True, there are some bad eggs like Chick and Phelps out there that I would just love to see burned alive, but there are people like that everywhere. Newsflash: prejudice has nothing to do with religion. It just uses religion as a shield, but even people without religion can be judgmental assholes. It's pretty much human nature and getting rid of religion will only make us find another outlit for our hatred.

No, Hitler lacked that sort of vision. He was short sighted as I said. But anyway, those Christian groups who supposedly help the poor, they do it to try and convert people to their way of thinking. Think about it, they are taking advantage of the poor man's situation to try and feed him their bullshit. "Hey God loves you! Here, have a turkey sandwich!". Yeah it looks good to the poor and to the media and to the public. But would they bother if they didn't think they could convert people? Fuck no. They just want to spread their influence and look good to the public. They're not 100% altruistic. And these CEOs of these companys that supposedly help the poor, they're fucking rich! Christianity is big buisness after all, just flip over to that garbage Trinity Broadcasting and hear them ask for money every 15 minutes.

Congratulations PS, you just killed me and probably a rather good portion of the forum. Not to mention all those Catholic doctors. And all those Catholic teachers. And all those Catholic engineers. And...

Maybe I'm crazy, but it's just quite possible that not everyone who is Catholic is some God-blinded bible thumper who runs around condemning everyone they come across to a fiery eternity in Hell. Or were you planning on making special exceptions for those of us you like or find useful?

Nothing personal of course. Its not my will for anyone to die, it is simply the logical thing to do for the betterment of humanity. And those doctors, teachers and engineers you mentioned are replaceable. You are replaceable. I am replaceable.

And yes, maybe not every so called Catholic is a bible thumping maniac. But then that makes them a hypocrite. One of the reasons I hate Christians more than other religions is because they are all hypocrites who don't follow their own holy book. They don't follow the commandments of Jesus, they don't follow the laws of the Old Testament. They simply pick and choose for their own convenience.

Its just like these fuckers who made Prop 8 pass in California. They always quote the bible saying Homosexuality is a sin, yet in the very same chapter of the bible it also says that eating shellfish is an abomination to god. And I don't see any fucking Christian rallys against Red Lobster.

I have more respect for Muslims who blow shit up because at least they are following their religion whole heartedly, not like Christians who cherry pick their fucking morality just because they want a free pass to heaven. The ignorance is disgusting, they don't realize what they truly are, just ego based conciousness that can't admit that they won't exist someday, so they grab on to the most convenient source of "eternal life" and "get saved by Lord Jesus" then live any damn way they please while condemning the rest of us to hell for not sharing that belief. Its goddamn bullshit.

And foeofthelance, yes my way of thinking condems you to death. However, you way of thinking condemns me to eternal damnation and everlasting torment. Think about that.

There are a few bad apples in every barrel of course, but most Pagans aren't bad.

The problem is, most of them are bad apples, not a few of them. They are bad apples not becaue they wish to be, but because they allow themselves to be. They are sheep. They grab onto a convenient explination to have "eternal life" like I said and fall in line with whatever bullshit religion is convenient. From their they are manipulated to hate and look down upon all other religions and factions. They will belive and do whatever their leaders tell them for the promise of eternal life. Many, many atrocities were commited by people sucked in by the lie and willing to kill and torture others for their promise of eternal life.

Also, you realize that as a pagan, no one takes you seriously right. You'll never hold public office if people know about that, and I'd be willing to bet if you lived down here in the fucking piece of shit bible belt you'd have a harder time than most at finding a job if your employer knew before hand you were pagan. No one respects your beliefs except for other pagans and maybe a few open minded atheists and agnostics.

Oh, and I'll go ahead and say, it wouldn't surprise me if somone on the board said in response to this "I'm a Chritian and I respect pagans" or some shit. But the vast majority thinks your loony, as if their made up diety holds any more weight than what you believe. Its the whole "My imaginary god is real and yours isn't" mentality bullshit.

[foeofthelance]

And foeofthelance, yes my way of thinking condems you to death. However, you way of thinking condemns me to eternal damnation and everlasting torment. Think about that.

Actually, my way of thinking boils down to "You pays your money, picks your horses, takes your chances, and gets what you gets." Sorry, never was one for manufactured faith, personally. Christianity boils down to one thing; God gave Man (and yes, WOman) free will. Also put down a set of rules believed to lead to having a good life, not only personally but with the neighbors as well. Got a bit tempramental here and there when folks on Earth didn't quite cooperate, but that's what happens when you let everyone make up their own mind, you know? Now, I don't know if it's a religious thing, but I was always taught that if you break the rules there's some sort of punishment for it, and the bigger the break the bigger than punishment. So yeah, there's got to be something for the people who can't get a grip on proper behavior. Doesn't necessarily mean there's supposed to be everlasting Hellfiror whatever. The word "redemption" tends to come around a lot, as well as "forgiveness" and "mercy". Not my place to tell you how to live; might give you advice if I think you're about to make a mistake, but then again one really shouldn't stick a lit firecracker down one's pants in order to prove that fireworks can't hurt people.

You? You let your prejudice lead you into making a sweeping generalization on par with me accusing everyone who recycles of being an ecoterrorist like those Earth Liberation Front guys who go around torching ski resorts. You just called for genocide in the name of peace and harmony; You called for the extermination of an entire group of people, simply because you don't agree with how they behave or how they think. How should we go, do you think? Should we be shot? I don't think all that lead would be good for the environment, really. Gassed maybe? Nah, just a little cliche at this point, I'm sure we can all agree on that. Oh! I know! How about you roast all at the stake in a clear case of poetic justice! Sounds fitting to me, how about you?

But in the end I don't really think it matters much. You just judged and sentenced people to pain and death because they are different from you. For thinking different than you. For not BELIEVING what you believe. Tell me, Psychostorm, how does that make you any different from the people you say you hate?

Oh, and I'll go ahead and say, it wouldn't surprise me if somone on the board said in response to this "I'm a Chritian and I respect pagans" or some shit. But the vast majority thinks your loony, as if their made up diety holds any more weight than what you believe. Its the whole "My imaginary god is real and yours isn't" mentality bullshit.

Oh, hell, might as well finish the job since I'm here. Yeah, my best friend is a Druid Priestess, or so she terms it. I don't whack her over the head with holy books and she doesn't get in my face about disrespecting Mother Gaia. (She can get a little picky about me throwing plastic bottles into the trash instead of recycling, but then so does my mother, so I'm not sure that counts.) She also happens to be bisexual and president of the Gays, Lesbians, and Others club at our college. I'm the Senator. So what? Or are you going to accuse me of being a bad Christian and hypocrit for not starting each meeting with, "Just a reminder, when you all die you're going to roast in th eternal fires of HELL!!!!!" Sorry, it seems my priest never got around to delivering the sermon on how to condemn others for their way of life...

Edited January 3, 2009 by foeofthelance

[greenwizard]

It's true that Pagans do face discrimination, but honestly no more than non white races. The biggest difference is you can't tell a Pagan just by looking at them usually.

Foe is right, you are condemning an entire group of people because their way of thinking is different than yours. I find it funny that I can listen to the Christian zealots call me a servant of Satan and roll my eyes and walk away. I don't know what your beliefs are, but you are spewing hate.

How much do you know about Christianity? Have you ever studied it? I have. My knowledge isn't perfect on the subject, but I do know quite a bit. Yes, there are many contradictions. That is why I left the church for something different. Hate is a poison and I don't have time for it.

[shinigamiinochi]

If I was hungry and living on the streets, I wouldn't care what the people giving me food's intention was. Sometimes, the ends do justify the means, and not all Christians help the poor to 'convert', some believe in what they are preaching, that helping people in need is what God wants them to do. It doesn't really matter what the reason is, sometimes. Sometimes, what help is given is worth the reason. Not every advance made by religion has been evil, some of it has been good. It's a bit like war creating the computers we're typing on right now or the medicines that help people everyday. In end, genocide is genocide, and who are you to decide who lives and dies? Your approach doesn't sound any more different than those 'religious types' who think that the world would be so much better if all gays were eliminated. They have reasons, too, but they sound just as hollow as yours. Hate is hate and the end result is exactly the same: why should people, who think they are doing the right thing, die just because of what they chose to believe, because you think you have the world's best interests at heart? Sounds like the mentality of so many genocidists before. I despise that sort of righteous philosophy of anyone, regardless if it is due to religion or economics.

My family is protestant, and maybe I do hate the things they believe, but they still raised me and they still do good things. I also have a lot of Pagan friends and they have never pushed their religion onto anyone. Why should you be allowed to say they 'need' to die? Isn't your spewing hate more harmful than their religion?

[Psychostorm]

Ok, It's been a while and now its time to go again. Pardon my spelling I don't care to look up words I don't know how to spell right now.

Actually, my way of thinking boils down to "You pays your money, picks your horses, takes your chances, and gets what you gets."

You're religion, LIKE SO MANY OTHERS, boils down to "Believe what I believe or spend an eternity in torment". That is bullshit, how can you ever hope for peace when such ideologies will continously clash? "My imaginary GOD is real and yours isn't." more bullshit. If all humans could be rational we could eleminate a large portion of deviciveness and work towards peace. I don't mean absolute peace, that is just idealistic garbage, but rather a pragmatic sort of peace that could be managed.

Sorry, never was one for manufactured faith, personally. Christianity boils down to one thing; God gave Man (and yes, WOman) free will. Also put down a set of rules believed to lead to having a good life, not only personally but with the neighbors as well. Got a bit tempramental here and there when folks on Earth didn't quite cooperate, but that's what happens when you let everyone make up their own mind, you know?

And that is also total bullshit. Imagine this scenario

A scientist builds a robot and gives it free will. However, he also programs it to have sever homocidal tendencies. The robot of course goes out and kills people, and maybe, maybe even feels bad about it. The scientist then gets super pissed at the robot for killing people and has it dismantled and destoryed. No, he wants it to be tortured for all eternity.

That is your so called god's salvation plan. He gave us free will. He programed us with human nature and then expects us to be PERFECT? MOTHER FUCKING PERFECT!??!? What the fucking hell? And then he wants us to grovel for playing out a scenario he created. Wants us to ask for forgiveness for doing what he programed us too? He is alledgely all knowing and all powerful. We can not deviate from his will or his programming. Christianity is just one huge Catch 22. It is bullshit.

Now, I don't know if it's a religious thing, but I was always taught that if you break the rules there's some sort of punishment for it, and the bigger the break the bigger than punishment. So yeah, there's got to be something for the people who can't get a grip on proper behavior.

And just what is proper behaviour? Not being gay? Not eating shellfish? Sacrificiing two turtles when you menstrate? This is all in the bible. Should be be sentenced to everlasting torment for violating these bullshit laws that god programed us to break anyway?

My standards are much more realistic. Behave rationally and do nothing to harm your fellow man and you won't have to die. Drag down the human race and be eleminated.

Doesn't necessarily mean there's supposed to be everlasting Hellfiror whatever.

There is. Read the Bible please.

The word "redemption" tends to come around a lot, as well as "forgiveness" and "mercy".

Not in the old testament, you fucking break the law you die. In the New Testament Jesus said all that forgivness bullshit but then contradicted it several times with other bullshit.

Not my place to tell you how to live; might give you advice if I think you're about to make a mistake, but then again one really shouldn't stick a lit firecracker down one's pants in order to prove that fireworks can't hurt people.

You're belief system demands that all those who don't believe the same as you be tormented for all eternity. Sounds a bit worse than a firecracker in the pants.

You? You let your prejudice lead you into making a sweeping generalization on par with me accusing everyone who recycles of being an ecoterrorist like those Earth Liberation Front guys who go around torching ski resorts. You just called for genocide in the name of peace and harmony; You called for the extermination of an entire group of people, simply because you don't agree with how they behave or how they think. How should we go, do you think? Should we be shot? I don't think all that lead would be good for the environment, really. Gassed maybe? Nah, just a little cliche at this point, I'm sure we can all agree on that. Oh! I know! How about you roast all at the stake in a clear case of poetic justice! Sounds fitting to me, how about you?

But in the end I don't really think it matters much. You just judged and sentenced people to pain and death because they are different from you. For thinking different than you. For not BELIEVING what you believe. Tell me, Psychostorm, how does that make you any different from the people you say you hate?

Yes, we are very much similar, can't you see that? It is because we are both human, and humans will always clash. There is one thing that separates us, and that is I think in rational terms and have vision, I see the big picture. There is no magic sky daddy comming to save us. If we continue down this path we will destory the world and our entire race will be fucked. The infastructure can only take so much, and our massive global population and faltering global economy are testament to this. It doens't really matter, in 5 billion years the earth will be space dust but I personally would like to see how far the human race and make it.

My way of thinking offers real, tangible hope that we can all work towards. Your way offers torture and damnation to 99.9% of the population. Like I said the bottom line of your belief is that if you don't believe the same as you you willl be tortured for all eternity. My way is that you should fall in line and work for the greater good or simply die somewhat sooner than everyone else. My way offers real results that we can all work towards.

Oh, hell, might as well finish the job since I'm here. Yeah, my best friend is a Druid Priestess, or so she terms it. I don't whack her over the head with holy books and she doesn't get in my face about disrespecting Mother Gaia. (She can get a little picky about me throwing plastic bottles into the trash instead of recycling, but then so does my mother, so I'm not sure that counts.) She also happens to be bisexual and president of the Gays, Lesbians, and Others club at our college. I'm the Senator. So what? Or are you going to accuse me of being a bad Christian and hypocrit for not starting each meeting with, "Just a reminder, when you all die you're going to roast in th eternal fires of HELL!!!!!" Sorry, it seems my priest never got around to delivering the sermon on how to condemn others for their way of life...

You're very belief system condemns others not just for their way of life but for their beliefs. I guess your priest was just intrested in candy coating the bible's brutality and just wanted to offer you that oh so desireable ticket to heaven that humans crave.

[Psychostorm]

Foe is right, you are condemning an entire group of people because their way of thinking is different than yours. I find it funny that I can listen to the Christian zealots call me a servant of Satan and roll my eyes and walk away. I don't know what your beliefs are, but you are spewing hate.

Yes I am condemning people for their way of thinking and so is Foe. So is everyone who follows any major religion. My way simply offers tangible results and doesn't promise that you get you're fucking reward of eternal life after you die. My way is free of a lot of bullshit. I take the pragmatic approach to humanty's "salvation". And if this is your idea of hate, then every major relgion is simply preaching hate under the guise of salvation. "Believe what I belive and go to heaven while every one else goes to hell". Yeah, thats real loving and kind

How much do you know about Christianity? Have you ever studied it? I have. My knowledge isn't perfect on the subject, but I do know quite a bit. Yes, there are many contradictions. That is why I left the church for something different. Hate is a poison and I don't have time for it.

I know a damn lot about Christinaity. I was raised Southern Babtist. I was taught that not only all other religions would burn in hell but all other denominations of Christianity, Catholic, Mormon, you name it. My crazy mother would watch Pat Robertson on TV and lay hands on me and pray while she belived that maniac was talking to god. She told me to never be open minded because if I did demons would possess me. She taught me to hate Athiests, Agnostics and anyone different. I was taught that all liberals and Democrates were going straight to hell. I had the doctrine of hate shoved down my throat from the moment I was born. I have had Sunday school teachers tell me that calling some one a "fool" endangered me of the fires of hell. I was not allowed to watch TV shows such as Ren and Stempy because they were "not Christian". I was not allowed to listend to main stream music. I have swallowed lie after lie after lie in the name of Jesus fucking Christ. I have read the bible from cover to cover. I have researched it on the interenet. I have seen its bullshit exposed time and time again.

All that remains now is the hate. And I hate bullshit. And religion is absolute bullshit.

Also I hate what its done to my mother. She could have been an intelligent, brilliant woman but all her potential has been wasted and squandered in the name of empty belief. Religion sunk its talons into her deep and turned her into the monster she is.

My family is protestant, and maybe I do hate the things they believe, but they still raised me and they still do good things. I also have a lot of Pagan friends and they have never pushed their religion onto anyone. Why should you be allowed to say they 'need' to die? Isn't your spewing hate more harmful than their religion?

I spew no more hate than they do. I just don't candy coat it and try and disguise it behind a false mask of "love". Ignorance, particularly willful ignorance is more dangerous to humanity than hate. Hate will always exist, it is a part of human nature. However it can be managed and directed as needed. Ignoranace on the other hand will drag us back to the dark ages and shit all over progress.

I don't pretend to take a moral high ground over religion. Claiming a moral high ground is the fastest way to become a hypocrite since morality is subjective anyway. Thus all religions are inherinlty hypocritical. Instead I reject morality itself and look towards tangible progress and results. I am a rationalist and a pragmatist who wants to better humanity and if people have to die then so be it. Its like slicing off a limb to save the body.

Also, I'd like to thank all of you for being civil reasonalble in our discussion. Most people of religion would just get offended and begin flaming or spewing total nonsense. When people start doing that(like they tend to do on You Tube) I just start blaspheming, I figure if I can't have a reasonable disscussion with them I might as well just piss them off.

[greenwizard]

Well now at least I understand why you feel the way you do a little better....

First of all, not all religion teaches hate. Christianity and Islam extremists are the main offenders. Though Christianity is broken down into different denominations and not all are alike. Catholics and Mormons are the absolute worst. My best friend grew up in a Mormon family and some of the things she's told me scare me. Catholics think they are the authority and if they excommunicate you then you can't get into Heaven. Talk about having a swelled head....

Growing up I went to a Lutherin church, and a Methodist church. Methodists really aren't that bad. Even still, the Christian church is not for me.

Now I will ask how much you know about other religions... such as Paganism which I practice...? To us being unique is a good thing. There is a lot of discrimination because there are a lot of misconceptions. My religion does not teach hate. My belief is that we are all here to serve a purpose. I like to think of the world as a giant machine. Each one of us is a part, and when we're put together we make this world function.

To say killing off Christians would make the world a better place is no better than what they preach. They may be foolish, but like mosquitos, they serve a purpose. And if you're wondering what purpose mosquitos serve, they're food for bats.

It wasn't right for your mother to shove her religion down your throat, I'll agree with that. I believe everyone has the right to choose since you're the one who has to live with it. But is it really worth wasting your energy to hate her? Most of your posts on this forum have been so negative.... Is there anything that you view positively?

[Psychostorm]

Well now at least I understand why you feel the way you do a little better....

First of all, not all religion teaches hate. Christianity and Islam extremists are the main offenders. Though Christianity is broken down into different denominations and not all are alike. Catholics and Mormons are the absolute worst. My best friend grew up in a Mormon family and some of the things she's told me scare me. Catholics think they are the authority and if they excommunicate you then you can't get into Heaven. Talk about having a swelled head....

Growing up I went to a Lutherin church, and a Methodist church. Methodists really aren't that bad. Even still, the Christian church is not for me.

Now I will ask how much you know about other religions... such as Paganism which I practice...? To us being unique is a good thing. There is a lot of discrimination because there are a lot of misconceptions. My religion does not teach hate. My belief is that we are all here to serve a purpose. I like to think of the world as a giant machine. Each one of us is a part, and when we're put together we make this world function.

To say killing off Christians would make the world a better place is no better than what they preach. They may be foolish, but like mosquitos, they serve a purpose. And if you're wondering what purpose mosquitos serve, they're food for bats.

It wasn't right for your mother to shove her religion down your throat, I'll agree with that. I believe everyone has the right to choose since you're the one who has to live with it. But is it really worth wasting your energy to hate her? Most of your posts on this forum have been so negative.... Is there anything that you view positively?

I don't know too much about Paganism, I'll admit. But I still live by logic and will only believe in things that can be backed up by facts, evidence and data. I think that the more educated a person is the better. And I still stick by my view that killing off all Chritians would make the world a better place because in my view they are part of what's holding us back from progress, as well as all dogmatic thinking(which is the real culprit, religion is simply a symptom of this problem). Also, hate is the only bond I have with my parents at this point. I want them to bow down to me and admit they were wrong, I want them to admit that I have always been their intellectual superior and I want them be more than ignorant bumpkins who aren't worthy of my respect. They refuse to better themselves, refuse to educate themselves and refuse to acknowledge the error of their ways. I can't help someone who refuses to help themselves. But if they ever wise up, then I will forgive them. It won't happen though, they want their free ticket to heaven, even at the cost of having a healthy relationship with their son.

Also, I'm done with this disscussion, I think we've all said everything we're going to say and I've gotten bored with it. I'm just glad to have a place to say things like this.

I guess all my posts come across as negative but that's because the interenet is the only place I have to vent. I can't say shit like this to people in real life because I live in piece of shit Georgia where everyone is a stupid hick and I would be socially blackballed if they knew I was an athiest.

Oh, and as for things I view positivly that would be science, education, humor, creativity, cats(I LOVE kitty cats), exersize(weight lifting in particular), creative/inovative metal bands such as Dark Tranquillity, Inflames, Dragonforce, Children of Bodom, and Master Plan. I also like classical music and have a thing for piano pieces played in minor. Also I like medical stuff and hope to pursue a careere in that field. Psychology, sociology, physics(quantum or standard modle or string theory), and astrophysics also interest me to a degree. Oh, and synthetic biology is really interesting as well.

[bookworm51485]

They have every right to openly oppose Obama about this, but my personal belief is that if one wants an abortion, one should be able to have one, religious restrictions notwithstanding.

However, I also believe that if the Christian (esp. Catholic) part of America decides to condemn Obama because of this, the country will go to hell. Not that it's not there already.

I don't believe they have the right to, or attempt to, throw the complete power of the Catholic Church behind this crusade.

[bookworm51485]

Oh, I don't either, however, I do think that a lot of people underestimate what this Christian section of the country would be able to do if they put their minds to it.

I don't. They managed to persecute and murder non-Christians for centuries, I'm sure they could do plenty of damage if they really tried.