Mary Sue

[Kanashii]

There are so many times I have heard an author say they are hesitant to write or post something within a fandom because they are afraid an Original Character might be seen as a "Mary Sue" (Or Marty Smith if it's a guy?)

But I honestly think the "Mary Sue" term is thrown about much to losely myself.

Yes, there is the ol' "Mary Sue Litmus Test" and yes, we have all come across some fanfics that are truly the silly "Mary Sue/Marty Smith" type stories (some on purpose as paradies and well done too!)

But is EVERY 'Original Character' in a fandom a Mary/Marty Sue? I say a resounding No! I have read many wonderful stories on this site and other where Original Characters are not a way to bring to light the 'fandom characters' themselves, but can truly bring a well written story together.

So many times I have seen authors throw in the caveat of "Well I write Original Characters within a fandom but...They are not Mary Sue's!" it seems almost as if authors are afraid or apologizing ahead of time for putting Original Characters within a fandom story. There is no reason for it. I really think that the term "Mary Sue" is bandied about with far to much frequency and fear.

Yes, we as writers cannot please everyone, and there will always be some reader who raises bloody hell because we are not writing a true 'sequel' to LOTR, HP or heaven forbid, we introduce ONE Original Character to a fandom. But honestly, I would say that as an avid reader and experienced writer, most of what I read in the fandoms is NOT Mary/Marty Sue material at all.

Yes I have written in fandoms as well, both Harry Potter and the Sopranos, and I try and keep things within timelines and the authors/shows original plot lines, but of course my stories have Original Characters in them.

So please fellow authors, never feel as if you are walking on eggshells when introducing OC's to a fandom fic. Some of the best and favorite stuff I have read here are stories with wonderful and varied OC's!

And if you do get the one review out of twenty that flames you for writing a "Mary Sue" or how you "destroyed someones image of their characters" well, it is more than likely the readers problem than yours as an author...

on the other hand if all twenty reviews are flames...Well, maybe the story needs to be tweaked..Unless of course you are the author(s) of that wonderful story "The Mary Sue Virus"

[LilRinnieB]

Actually, I replied to a post on here just today and included the "mary sue" term, so I guess I'm one of the authors out there who dwells on this. I introduced an original character in the very first chapter of my HP fic (and it was my very first fic ever, so I was twice as nervous about including OCs because I wasn't sure how they'd be received). It turns out that my readers have embraced the OCs as just another part of the story, but I have received a few reviews that made comments like, "At first I wasn't sure I was going to keep reading this because of the OC" or "The mention of OCs made me suspicious."

I think if you're confident that your OCs are fully fleshed-out characters in their own right and not just cardboard facsimiles, then you shouldn't worry about the whole "Mary Sue" label. But for sweet Snarry's sake, give the OCs some faults. Make them human (err ... unles they aren't supposed to be human - but honestly, perfection is boring, so at least give them combination skin or a receding hairline or something). I think that's where some authors slip up.

Anyway, that's my view on it. I do think OCs can be tricky to write if you're including them in a fanfic setting, but I like the challenge

[shinigamiinochi]

No, not all OCs are Mary Sue's. Anyone who has read my original fiction or the rare times that I let an original character into my gundam wing fiction, can attest to the fact that none of my OCs are a bit like me. Part of the reason is that I don't find myself to be an interesting person and I really don't like reading mary sues. Take my favorite OC: Cale Selt, 17, spiky silver hair, male, golden eyes, a volatile temper, totally naiive when it comes to sex, and has a self destructive streak. I'm 20, hazel eyed, brown haired, have a very mellow personality, know just about everything there is to know about sex, and I don't even drink alcohol. Sure, I'll let tiny parts of myself into my characters. Cale likes cats, I like cats. Cale is interested in nature, I love watching the animal planet. This is less because I want to see myself in him than it is important to the plot and I write about what i know. Another example is that a lot of my OCs like and talk about the horror genre because I am an expert in it. I would not have my characters talking about the romance genre when I, as the author, have no idea what I'm talking about. I also always give my OCs faults simply because it makes them seem more like real people and less like characters in a bad book.

Toura: yeah, he's pretty, but he's very shy and feel guilty about everything. he is very soft spoken and rarely sticks up for himself

Okami: Strong and noble, but so stubborn I sometimes feel like smacking him with a frying pan

Frey Johnson: A bitter, repressed, yet creative and emotional boy

ect.

[midnightphoenix]

This is exactly what I'm worried about whenever I write OC's for any of my stories. For one that I'm writing, my beta said that it screamed Mary Sue to her, but I've had positive reviews on the story (it's on FF.net). That's what makes me wonder...if people are liking it, I'm assuming that I'm doing something right with the character. I accept positive criticism about my characters/stories, because I want to make a high quality story.

[Pokeprof]

Mary Sue's are really up to how the story goes about more then the character itself. I remember reading a story about the Teen Titans where a character was introduced as a super hero, helped out with the titans, and spent a better part of the story trying to court Raven (which he did, in the end). All in all, he IS a Mary Sue (Or Gary/Marty Stu, if you're wanting to call male sues' that) character, one who goes into a set group with no mention of him before, and ends up not only being a hero but having one of the main characters (Who is known to be resistant to emotions) fall in love with him.

But it was how the story was presented and how well done it was that made it exceptable. Under most stories, I highly doubt that I would have been receptive of the sue, because often they do all that in a single (And often first) chapter. The character I'm talking about went through trying to get Raven over the course of over 40 chapters in all, all of witch were over 20 pages long in word. And while some may point out size doesn't matter when it comes to storyline to be good, I can tell you that I read all that in a single day. THAT's how good the author was.

Also, for those of us who create original stories, or stories based in worlds that have no set storyline/character development (IE, most of my stories are about Video Game characters back during the SNES days and most of them were either silent protaganists or had stories that didn't reveal much about the character) it's hard not to create a Mary Sue as at least the hero or main character.

In fact, I'm quite guilty of making one myself in my first erotic story which is placed in the Pokegirl World (Go to Pokegirl.org if you're wanting to know what the hell a Pokegirl is, or just read some of our stories) in where I had a character who not only has an unusual abilitiy that hasn't been completely revealed yet, but has also gained a rather strong and rare ally with little difficultly right off the bat. So not even the best of us are immune to writing Mary Sues, but as long as we actually try and give our readers a fantastic story that keeps within the realms of what they know and keeps they're favorite characters the way they're ment to be (Even if they happen to fall in love/have sex with a differernt character) then we still have fantastic stories.

[Keith Inc.]

I tend to think that the point of writing a story about a fandom is to play around with the characters that made the fandom what it is. I want to write, to read, to further live through Kirk, Spock and McCoy, not Kirk, Spock and Busty Anderson.

Then again, i've read fanfic where the canon characters are rather clearly become a Mary or Marty Sue.

I wouldn't assume that any original character was MS, just as a matter of principle. But i would tend to more closely scrutinize an OC against the various MS tests or my personal thumbrules.

[Xx....-Dark Vamp Writer-....Xx]

I don't understand what is bad about a mary sue fic? I guess I don't understand at all because I never write fanfiction. I know the term by definition but why are they so bad to read or how come fans don't like them?

[Keith Inc.]

Usually, the character steals the spotlight from the regulars, does everything and does it better than the canon characters.

A woman that programs Spock's computers better than Spock can.

A teen that finds clues Sherlock missed.

A teenage mutant ninja tortoise that fights all four of the TMNT's to a standstill.

Everyone loves her, everyone wishes they were Mary, or could be closer to Mary, everyone appreciates her insight and sacrifice and misses her when she's gone.

I don't care that someone has daydreams where they have Jedi Powers in the Old West and end up saving SG-1 from yet another time travel episode by hijacking the Jupiter two... It's just not what i would want to read a Mission: Impossible fanfic for...

Ultimately, well-written is well-written. Characterization is as characterization does. But too obvious self-insertions just grate.

[Xx....-Dark Vamp Writer-....Xx]

Usually, the character steals the spotlight from the regulars, does everything and does it better than the canon characters.

A woman that programs Spock's computers better than Spock can.

A teen that finds clues Sherlock missed.

A teenage mutant ninja tortoise that fights all four of the TMNT's to a standstill.

Everyone loves her, everyone wishes they were Mary, or could be closer to Mary, everyone appreciates her insight and sacrifice and misses her when she's gone.

I don't care that someone has daydreams where they have Jedi Powers in the Old West and end up saving SG-1 from yet another time travel episode by hijacking the Jupiter two... It's just not what i would want to read a Mission: Impossible fanfic for...

Ultimately, well-written is well-written. Characterization is as characterization does. But too obvious self-insertions just grate.

Is that why it's so bad?

[Pokeprof]

Is that why it's so bad?

It's bad because most Mary Sue stories also tend to be written horribly, enough so that they grate on the very readers nervers. That and the fact that it doesn't make since for your favorite characters to go gaga over an authors character in a single chapter, it just kinda takes away what you love about your character when they completely snub the characters they know and should love for someone who just pops up outta no where.

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

While I do have concerns that my OCs (who have a tendency to shack up with hot males) are a bit Mary Sueish, fortunately, I know the difference between a character created to be an idealised version of me, and a character created because my imagination wouldn't shut the hell up.

Take... oooooh... Hotwire. Gets shacked up with Barricade. That's a problem, I won't deny. But at least she doesn't change him. He's still Barricade. A Decepticon. A fractious bastard. Otherwise he wouldn't be attractive if I were emotionally diseased, and I wouldn't have a door poster of the Bad Cop on my door.

Also, nobody's being taken away from him. I dislike stealing people from people who are already shacked up.

Oh yes, and I don't think Litmus Tests are much use. After all, one of the early questions is "Is your character the same gender as you?" Well really. There's only two genders to pick from anyway, and there's a 50% chance it will or will not be you. And if it is the same gender as you, why's that such a sure thing for a Sue? Now if it's deliberate, maybe, but if not, you just got a point, biatch!

Edited February 7, 2008 by Harley Quinn hyenaholic

[Keith Inc.]

There's only two genders to pick from anyway, and there's a 50% chance it will or will not be you. And if it is the same gender as you, why's that such a sure thing for a Sue?

ONE hit on a litmus test isn't confirming that your OC is a MS.

But hitting many points on a litmus test is developing a pattern.

A character of mine is male, that's a point up. But he has a job i don't, a point down. His name isn't mine, a point down. He has sex with a canon character, a point up. He is sometimes at a loss for words, a point down. He drives a cool car, +. Not cooler than his stated job could afford, -....

And so on.

As opposed to a character i remember from a published Star Trek novel a few years back. Male, the absolute top of his profession, seduced Uhura almost immediately on beaming aboard, solved a problem Spock/Kirk/McCoy couldn't, rescued an entire race becoming a hero to beings that had never heard of humans, etc. BIG marty sue.

To a degree, all the characters of a well-written story are at least a little bit self insertion. I have to get into Agent Gibbs' head enough to figure out how he'd react to a situation, or Abby's, or General O'Neill's... But i try to be true to the character as established, and as the fandom would desire.

[TurtleHermit]

As a general thought in response to the original author my thoughts on MarySues are....

Popular books, have Sues to some degree. It is what makes them fun to read. If you aren't something better or different or interesting in some way...no one is going to want to read about your characters. They may like your plot, they may like your use of rhetorical devices, but they can't love your characters.

People, are Mary Sues. People, like you and me, have "cool cars", and their names ARE "variations of Raven" and unfortunately MANY people are abdandoned as children without known parentage....

A Sue is a perspective...it's that niggling line that everyone draws mentally at some point in the dirt where they say, "No more. This is too ideal, and not fucked up enough to be humanistic."

So, in my opinion, the Sue Litmus is most definitely ONE person, or even a compliation of persons' PERSPECTIVES....and that does not mean it is the word of God.

Nor does my opinion, nor anyone on this Forum's...Mary Sue...is a name. A name of a girl. A girl who exists. Leave her as a line drawn in your mental dust, and if the writing is bad, say it is BAD but to throw around the name of an innocent female in an attempt to classify and stereotype?....

Well, people....lol, that seems a little "Sue" to me! lmao!

[PariahSolo]

Okay, what do you call a character who is based off of you but only the flawed parts standout? (And no, am not talking about Phillip in XSFGC, for those that have perused my fanfic).

Albert - PariahSolo - eastwoodaen

[Keith Inc.]

Okay, what do you call a character who is based off of you but only the flawed parts standout? (And no, am not talking about Phillip in XSFGC, for those that have perused my fanfic).

A character, however based, with flaws is not a Mary Sue (Or Marty Suet).So, it may be a Self Insertion, but not an incompetent example of doing so.

[Keith Inc.]

I tried, here: http://www2.adult-fanfiction.org/forum/inde...;mary+sue\

to define a Mary Sue. Not as a litmus test as much as an attempt to capture the feel i get when i think the character is a Mary Sue. Or some of the behaviors that would identify, to me, a less blatant self-insertion.

[bitBlackmage]

Hmm... if any of my characters are Sues/Stus, then so be it.

[scottishfae]

I think the term may be overused by people who simply don't like OCs in their fandom. But I also think Mary Suing can happen inside of characters that do exist in the real universe of fandom. I became aware of this in the Naruto fandom, reading yaoi/shonen-ai stories, and noticing that many times characters in male x male relationships were often taken OOC to fit what I always felt was often more traditionally "female" roles (and yes, I died a little inside. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten sick of reading an overly emotional, melodramatic Naruto in a relationship with Sasuke who is all manly. While I could just be assuming that the author, usually females in the cases I've viewed, is just bad at keeping people IC, it often feels that they're putting themselves into the story as that character, and thus changing the character at the same time.

But that could just be me...and I am aware that I did a poor job of explaining that too.

[Guest Monsterking]

I think that your original charectors are your own to create and if you really like your OC keep him/her the way he/she is

[Velvet D Coolette]

The problem stems, I think, from the fact that a lot of younger writers don't quite understand that an image that is bright and vibrant in their heads isn't necessarily on a screen when a complete stranger reads it. That, ultimately, everybody else doesn't see things the way they do. Therefore description is found wanting, and a character the author made up isn't as interesting to other people as it is to them.

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

More about Mary Sue.

Don't EVER forget Vitamin Special. Now EVERYBODY has something that makes them special. Even human beings have something that makes them special. But it's not always a good thing. Me, I've got Epilepsy and Aspergers Syndrome and dislocatable thumbs. Your character will have things that make them stand out. Maybe they'll be 50/50 Autobot/Decepticon (with bad features from both sides). Maybe they'll be a stunningly amazing mercenary (in a world packed with skilled mercs). Maybe they'll be a woman in a job women don't usually go into.

But the good things should always be balanced out with bad things. Likewise, if you like angst, sad things should be balanced out with happy things - SOMEWHERE. Hotwire may have a massive amount of emotional abuse in her past (at least, SHE thinks it's emotional abuse), but it's balanced out now by somebody who loves her.

But YOU wanna know more about Vitamin Special.

Vitamin Special isn't about good and bad. It's about "LOOK AT MY CHARACTER! SHE'S SO SPECIAL! She outshines everybody! She's [name's] daughter! Not for good plot reasons, but because that would be SO AWESOME! She's mating with [name!] Not like a normal relationship that will have arguments and them having to make up sometimes - but because I LOVE THAT GUY! She has an action sequence with [name!] Not for plot, and not so that she can get her awesomeness balanced with getting her ass kicked by somebody twice her size, but WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO KICK HIS ASS?! I HATE HIM! Oh, and she can use two swords, and two guns, and she's sexy, and she's got a cool but attactive scar, and every character I like likes her, and I think the villain's misunderstood, so she's going to make him into a cool badass anti-hero that she can sleep with! And look at her colour-changing eyes!"

Vitamin Special means your OC can do things that other characters in this fandom can't do, or, if they can do, can't do it as well/as often/as fast (as in learning to use your powers) as that. And once again, I repeat that it's not for any good, well thought out reasons. Amazingness can make for a cool character in the right hands. It's because, and ONLY because it would be SO COOL SO I'VE GOT TO FIND A WAY TO DO IT.

Now wanting to do something that's megacool isn't so bad. Wow, katanas are so cool! But you need to understand the right place to put this megacool thing. Oh, sure, you can have a pair of katanas in 200 years time. But will they stand up to those future laser weapons with range and status effects? THINK about it.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Harley Quinn hyenaholic

[bitBlackmage]

Oh yes, and I don't think Litmus Tests are much use. After all, one of the early questions is "Is your character the same gender as you?" Well really. There's only two genders to pick from anyway, and there's a 50% chance it will or will not be you. And if it is the same gender as you, why's that such a sure thing for a Sue? Now if it's deliberate, maybe, but if not, you just got a point, biatch!

Not only that but these litmus tests are as shallow as the Mary-Sues they claim to detect. They don't go into motivations or the whys.... my character is human with purple eyes (that's not normal), but the test doesn't know why that is, so that's a point on his Mary Sue record to the test.

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

That, bitBlackMage, is so true.

Look at the Transformers Universe. Many a time, you'll find that one of the things on a Mary Sue test is "Has your character a name that is a word?" or something. Pretty much every Transformer you'll ever see has a name that means something else. Your OC is going to stand out more if they DON'T have a name that describes their personality, or their skills or something.

Nicknames? Lots of people have nicknames. Maybe just their name shortened, or maybe they're like my merc character, who calls herself Breech Loader because she doesn't want other people knowing her real name. It's not that unusual.

And being 13-21 years old - most human characters in teenage fiction are around this age. Why shouldn't your character be around this age to fit in with them? Hell, sometimes they NEED to be this age. As long as they're not doing things that 13-21 year olds can't do without the consequences, it's fine. But no, you just got another point. But if she's 22 (she's 25, actually), I'm fine.

One of the problems many litmus tests have is that a character gets into trouble with authority. Now I have a character who's mentally unstable and dating a 'con. If that DIDN'T get her into trouble with the Autobots, I'd be MORE worried. Hell, sometimes having a 'con as a bf gets her into trouble with other 'cons. Conflict is what a story is all about. If there's no conflict, there's no story. Plot points are not what make a Mary Sue either.

Also, there's way to much bitching about "Being part of the plot". First of all, if it's part of the plot it's LESS likely to make your character a Mary Sue. Secondly, if it DIDN'T help, how would NOT being part of the plot make a character's purple/green/blue/pink eyes any better?

Warping canon may well make a bad story, as may clichés, but they don't make a Mary Sue. Warping canon FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR OC is what makes a Mary Sue.

Remember, you don't need a Mary Sue in your fic to make it bad. Dreadful grammar or spelling, a terrible plot, nothing but clichés, all help. And if it's that bad, it doesn't need a Mary Sue to make me recoil. If you can't spell or write a plot, I'm not really going to notice that your character's also Harry Potter's lover.

[Guest MortiferLascivio]

I don't get the big deal with Mary-Sues. If someone wants to write their character incredibly beautiful/haunted/perfect then that's their right, isn't it? I mean, we all come to this site to write what we want, so who really cares if someone writes their character that way? People complain about them a lot, but they aren't hard to ignore.

[maidenhair]

I don't get the big deal with Mary-Sues. If someone wants to write their character incredibly beautiful/haunted/perfect then that's their right, isn't it? I mean, we all come to this site to write what we want, so who really cares if someone writes their character that way? People complain about them a lot, but they aren't hard to ignore.

Well said!

Linda