anewone Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 I am a newbie here and I really just don't understand the definition of a Mary Sue, to me it sounds like its a cliche story but I'm not really sure. I am working on original characters and stories. Any help would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altari Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 I've heard Mary Sues referred to as "fulfillment characters" - meaning the writer uses the character to fulfill their every personal desire. They are usually one-dimensional, although the author attempts to make them multi-dimensional by piling on the fluff (pretty and smarrt and plays drums AND bass and is a princess and turns into a dragon and everyone loves her....you get the point). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotanAnubis Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Yeah, in the broadest sense, Mary Sues are just so perfect and so special and everbody loves them so much. Except the readers, of course. They tend to think this sort of character is annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altari Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 *cough*Kagome*cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cu-kid9 Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 *cough*Kagome*cough* Oh! Leave poor Kagome alone, she's not "perfect," she's just written that way I define Mary-Sues as being sort of omnipotent as well, meaning a they know things that are just strange for them to know. In my mind, a character that is turning Mary-Sueish is Anita Blake from Hamilton's novels (she goes to the ballet once and suddenly knows what a glissade is? C'mon now). Just because you, as the author, can look things up to find out what they are/mean/do, does not necessarily mean that your character should know these things as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foeofthelance Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 I take your explanations, and support them with my Internet-fu! Warning: Second link is NSFW, mostly because it will lead to time consuming and loss of productivity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main...onMarySueTraits http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueTropes Mary Sue: the Typhoid Mary of the Internet. So famously dreaded that I've heard airheaded bimbos, who wouldn't know a fanwork if you smacked them over the head with the printed collection of this site's archive, refer to other girls as "Mary Sues." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Quinn hyenaholic Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Actually, these definitions are only the most obvious and petty kind of Sue. Mary Sue is not defined by her powers or the colour of her hair or her name. After all, if you're writing in the anime section, bless you, your hair and eyes can be any colour you damn well want. Having brown hair doesn't stop a Sue. Not if her long, hazel locks flow like silk and draw attention because despite being brown, her hair's still better than the guys with blue hair and violet eyes. And in a fandom like Transformers, seriously, how many characters are called 'Steve'? No, no, no, Mary Sue is defined by two things - Vitamin Special, and how you think about her. Vitamin Special means that Mary Sue gets a disproportionate amount of screen time compared to the canons, and that she's better than they are or more important than they are. That the story wouldn't be a freaking story without her, that their asses would be toast without her. That rules of the universe are bent and broken for her. Take Transformers. You know Megatron is one evil bastard. Optimus Prime and Rodimus couldn't change that, even at the inevitable destruction of a planet. But he'd never treat Sue badly. Maybe he adores her, maybe he admires her, but there's no way he's going to capture and destroy Robot Sue. Even though normally he could do it without breaking a sweat. Sue doesn't have to be popular or attractive. Or powerful or amazing. Or based on you. After all, if she's based on you, down to the flaws, that's still got the potential to be a well-rounded character, provided you don't flaunt it. Sue just has to be infinitely more important than the CCs. As for how you think about Sue, do you ever get angry if people don't like her or fanfics she's in? It's fine to get annoyed about people calling her a Sue; it's not exactly a compliment. Do you ever fantasise that you are her and that she no longer has flaws? Do you fantasise that she would be able to hook up with characters you think are hot, but know you wouldn't have a chance with, either because of them (too chaste, too high up, too bastardised) or you (same reasons)? When you're writing about her, do you base her reactions on what you'd like to do? Do you have her starring in multiple fics? Is she basically the same personality as a previous OC who fulfilled these requirements, but altered for a different fandom? IE, turned into a cat/robot/human? None of these thinking things MAKES a Mary Sue, but they are definite indicators of an Author Avatar, which can, if you're not paying attention, become a Sue. Wish-Fulfilment characters are also rather borderline, but as I've said, if you don't flaunt it, you can get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jaxxy Posted July 14, 2008 Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 Actually, these definitions are only the most obvious and petty kind of Sue. Mary Sue is not defined by her powers or the colour of her hair or her name. After all, if you're writing in the anime section, bless you, your hair and eyes can be any colour you damn well want. Having brown hair doesn't stop a Sue.Not if her long, hazel locks flow like silk and draw attention because despite being brown, her hair's still better than the guys with blue hair and violet eyes. And in a fandom like Transformers, seriously, how many characters are called 'Steve'? No, no, no, Mary Sue is defined by two things - Vitamin Special, and how you think about her. Vitamin Special means that Mary Sue gets a disproportionate amount of screen time compared to the canons, and that she's better than they are or more important than they are. That the story wouldn't be a freaking story without her, that their asses would be toast without her. That rules of the universe are bent and broken for her. Take Transformers. You know Megatron is one evil bastard. Optimus Prime and Rodimus couldn't change that, even at the inevitable destruction of a planet. But he'd never treat Sue badly. Maybe he adores her, maybe he admires her, but there's no way he's going to capture and destroy Robot Sue. Even though normally he could do it without breaking a sweat. Sue doesn't have to be popular or attractive. Or powerful or amazing. Or based on you. After all, if she's based on you, down to the flaws, that's still got the potential to be a well-rounded character, provided you don't flaunt it. Sue just has to be infinitely more important than the CCs. As for how you think about Sue, do you ever get angry if people don't like her or fanfics she's in? It's fine to get annoyed about people calling her a Sue; it's not exactly a compliment. Do you ever fantasise that you are her and that she no longer has flaws? Do you fantasise that she would be able to hook up with characters you think are hot, but know you wouldn't have a chance with, either because of them (too chaste, too high up, too bastardised) or you (same reasons)? When you're writing about her, do you base her reactions on what you'd like to do? Do you have her starring in multiple fics? Is she basically the same personality as a previous OC who fulfilled these requirements, but altered for a different fandom? IE, turned into a cat/robot/human? None of these thinking things MAKES a Mary Sue, but they are definite indicators of an Author Avatar, which can, if you're not paying attention, become a Sue. Wish-Fulfilment characters are also rather borderline, but as I've said, if you don't flaunt it, you can get away with it. Wow, what a great thread, and a great post just above. A big tell: Sues are usually not-so-Sueish if they don't annoy the snot out of you (like WotanAnubis said). Conversely, if you have an OC that is arguably Sueish, but is a well-done and equal part of your Story, she'll usually be "called out" only by people who are trying to give you a hard time. At least this is the pattern I have observed in the fanfic community... and patterns are likely all we have to go by. This community is very dynamic, and may always continue to define itself as time goes by. If a Sue is plausible, likeable, and makes sense... like, she didn't just defeat Darth Vader "w/ teh powar of her LURV" or her super-flowing strands, locks, or tresses, or with her glowing/piercing/irresistible orbs/pools, or the silken-ness of the skirts that are whispering about her ankles (and how they should spend more time together ), it's probable that you've got a bona-fide OC going on. Not sure, but if you ask me, Sueish-ness is largely a matter of taste (as is what is likeable, etc). As a reader-to-reader difference in perspective, it will often elude a hard definition (like the terms "obscenity" and "pornography", which are slippery little words I deal with every day). I only add this because I have never personally seen the term "Mary Sue" used in a non-derogtative way (or nowhere beyond philisophical discussions about the possiblility that an enjoyable character could also be a Sue, at any rate). In the jerk-reflex way, I haven't seen it used as a compliment, like in a review. "Sue" is most commonly an insult (or, at its gentlest, "concrit"). Perhaps I am senile; someone correct me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymous_Nanotyrannus Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is not her perfection, it's the bad writing. Good writing makes a character with multiple hobbies and talents multifaceted and intricate; bad writing makes them a Mary Sue. I sum a Mary Sue up as this: if Barbie was a literary character, she'd be a Mary Sue. Everyone loves her, she has lots of different pets, many different talents, but no plausible backstory on how exactly she got them. So you have to hate her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is not her perfection, it's the bad writing. Good writing makes a character with multiple hobbies and talents multifaceted and intricate; bad writing makes them a Mary Sue. That is basically what everyone thinks of a Sue - the writing of the author. If the writing is awful, then most likely the character itself is going to be not that great but the author loves that character and if you tell them so, they will defend their character and keep writing the bad writing not wanting to improve. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 I sum a Mary Sue up as this: if Barbie was a literary character, she'd be a Mary Sue. Everyone loves her, she has lots of different pets, many different talents, but no plausible backstory on how exactly she got them. So you have to hate her. Amen! They never really give us a backstory about how Barbie got all these talents, she is basically your Mary Sue of Dolls! If they did a story about how Barbie went to night school to learn all these talents it would be believable but nope they didn't, thus she is the Mary Sue of Dolls. If there is such a thing as a Mary Sue of Dolls. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zyx Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Well, omnipotence can be a valid subject for a story... Stories are like ponds (they're actually not but either way) and crossovers try to mix two ponds and as you'd expect a lot of water is lost in the process, you might actually need to add some water to help them mix. Well, if you like: you like, so I don't mind. Mary Sues don't try to mix ponds or improve them. They just want to stand right in the middle of them. So you lose a lot of water and you get two stinky feet in return. [Mary Sue] This year at Hogwarts there was a new student... She'd flown over from the USA to... [/Mary Sue] I bet I've seen this one over a hundred times It's not hard to be a Mary Sue, the same way it's not hard to tie yourself to a sinking ship. The similarities continue for a while here... Death, pain, thousands of fish losing their homes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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