HusbandWife Review/Discussion

[Ayato]

A place to discuss the original m/m work called HusbandWife.

[Guest Avatar_tingal]

So this was what the vinegar was for! LOL!

So obviously some male Alphas are able to produce pheromones too. You mentioned Paul's accent...I wonder if he's maybe the son of an eastern Alpha.

[Ayato]

Paul's father is from the Western nation, like all alphas (that I know of) hi's adapted the accent from hes time as top-dog as well as some learning abroad. It's my understanding hes father wanted him to learn about the world... and possibly to keep Paul out of the hands of other alphas.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Ah, ok..., so Paul's father wanted to kept him away from other Alphas because he thought Paul could easily become a victim to the others. Easily to understand after what Blane said about their relationship. Hmm, that doesn't though explain that pheromone thing (which seemingly Abraham has got too).

But all in all, I got to think that the Alphas are in trouble as much as the normals are, although for different reasons. Seems that Alphas for a healthy psychological developement not only need their mothers, but siblings too - just like wolves. I guess, that both of them need a revolution. The Alphas need to keep the normals in line so that they are again allowed to have more than one child and the normals have to learn not only to respect the Alphas, but as well to respect the R66 carriers.

*frowning* I bet Alex's father was among the mob who murdered poor Tony and hurt his parents.

[Ayato]

I got a review that is full of questions, though I believe most of them are answered in the story but I'll still post them here, just in case. There are times where I think I've written that into a story buuuut then I got too excited and didn't.

"Husbandwives talk like 15 or 16 year olds, why?"

I have to say this is because of the G14 marker. The B's, C's and D's are a bit like sheep. A's as they are breaking are a little blurred over, their world is a little narrow as they break and this affects their speech and behaviour.

"Can any homosexuals be a husbandwife or just the ones with the R66?"

I'd like to clarify this because it hasn't been mentioned in a while in the story, all homosexuals (according to the laws of this particular world) carry the R66 marker. The G14 marker is the one that husbandwives carry. In order to be a husbandwife a male has to carry both the R66 (homosexual) and G14 ('breaking') genetic markers. Women can carry the G14 but it is highly rare and women cannot be wives to alphas due to government sanctions.

"Jaime's a husbandwife, so I'm confused about the markers...?"

Jaime, it's touched a little on while Blane is working in hes lab before they leave for Paul's City and then again later, is a special candidate. He is a straight man who saw Ezra on television one day and literally walked across the country to serve him. It's an asexual relationship.

"If the alphas are gay, how can thy marry a woman and have a baby? What happens to the woman after?"

Alphas do not marry thyre breeders. The women are volunteers on a government database, normally those who are criminals and have been given the option of breeding an alpha or going to jail. After the breeding the woman is actually free to go but for most the maternal instinct kicks in and she remains behind, raising the child until her death. She's well cared for, better cared for than the child often times. Blane's mother is not around because she died of cancer when hi was young.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Oh, poor Jaime! And poor Esra! Hi wouldn't survive Jaime's death. Especially as Esra seems to have some health issues as well, as you pointed out in the capter 'Dinner'. ( although I think that the influence of cholesterol is overestimated in real life. All Inuit, as well as other hunter/gatherers would have to die at the age of thirty if the cholesterol would do so much damage as maintained by health professionals)

Although Jaime is actually a sad topic with cancer threatening him, at one point I couldn't help but grin: When Paul told Blane about the true nature of Esra's and Jaime's relationship and Blane was completely clueless. And Alex just blinked innocently. :-)) That was priceless!

If Blane would only know what Jaime told Alex in their sub rosa talks...

And I can figure out now why Jaime took care of Alex and told him so much about his daily work. Alex needs to be prepared for the time when Jaime's gone and he has to take up all the responsibilities. Wouldn't that mean that Alex's time of innocence will soon have an end?

On the other hand, Paul needs the support of Esra to stay in power, which means Jaime must be kept alive by all means. And as Blane will need lots of money for this research, a flesh dept seems unavoidable - which would again mean that Alex might have to be broken faster than it's good for him...

This story is chapter by chapter unfolding into an incredible brilliant plot!

Another interesting point is the relationship between Paul and his son Peter. Peter seems to believe that his father hates hime and Paul argues the converse...Perhaps because Paul seems to choose the same field of work as hes Father? Politics? Or something else which still has to be revealed?

And I really, really wonder about that new toy of Paul! :-))

[Ayato]

I was asked today, by review, what exactly it was that Ezra owes Paul for?

Paul cut a deal with Ezra. Under this deal, Ezra owes Paul a flesh debt. In return Paul has actually kept any alpha from being able to request that any of Ezra's flesh debts be paid for by Jaime. Being that Jaime is a heterosexual male, this would be awkward and Ezra doesn't want to share Jaime to start with.

Blane has three days to decide whether or not he'd like to take a similar flesh debt with Paul, only with Alex being the subject of the bargain, no one would be able to request Alex fill a flesh debt. Ever. Making him exclusively Blane's, so long as Paul is in power.

Flesh debts are: Debts incurred by one alpha to another. Debts can be transferred from one alpha to another, to pay off another kind of debt (though few but brokers do this because brokers don't like other alphas "intruding" and will ruin those who trade one debt for another). The ower (alpha in debt) agrees to pay with flesh a certain fee. Normally this is just a bout of sex but can be the taking of a companion before breaking or even taking of a hand. The lender (the alpha who has given something to the ower) has the right to choose what the flesh debt is, at the time of lending. At the time of repayment the lender has the right to choose who has to pay the flesh debt.

Meaning that if Blane has six husbandwives and owes a flesh debt to Paul, Paul has hes choice of six people to pay the debt.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Ah, I was wondering about that deal too. I think it would be very wise of Blane to overcome his proud and accept the deal (and a good thing for Alex too). But this would, on the other hand, involve that Jaime (and Esra with him) stay alive so that Paul stays in power. Which again would require lots of money for the research Blane has to do. And we still don't know what Gerrit has discovered...But well....

So, my first question would be: You wrote that Blane's drug could even regrow damaged or removed organs. I agree that Jaime probably wouldn't survive the amount of time between the removal of an organ which is penetrated by a tumor and it's regrowth due to the drug.

But what, if the required organs would be already there when needed? Could Blane take biopsies of the threatened organs or bonemarrow before the cancer breaks out, set the cells into a nutrient solution and injects them with the drug? Blane knows Jaime's cancer markers, so he knows which organs will be involved. In this case, only a tumor in th brain would be a problem.

Second question: Could it be that Blane has already found the first halfth of the solution? You said that hes drug works like a virus , a virus that carries a certain information (or order if one like to say so). So what if Blane would simply change that order from "repair the body" to "remove the following DNA sequences: eg. lets say :A678, C800 etc...." , meaning the cancer markers?

Third, not so important question: Paul complained that he couldn't have rough sex with his own husbandwifes. Hmm, why didn't hy simply demand Esra to pay back his dept by lending him Robin? LOL! I don't think Robin would really mind...:-)

[Ayato]

To Paul that would be a waste of a flesh debt, as hi said to Alex, hi's had many A's by sneaking into the Alpha hotel, having them rough and hard and then leaving, their alpha none the wiser. In Paul's case, hi doesn't need to call in a flesh debt to have someone roughly, hi sleeps around.

I get the distinct feeling, though, that Paul doesn't actually have sex with hes husbandwives. Hi sleeps around a lot and probably views hes husbandwives more like cats. They're adorable, hi likes to pet and feed them but doesn't get sexual with them. After all, how could hi please that many husbandwives (let's just say it's a lot) while sleeping with whomever hi pleases who comes to hes city? Paul has a huge reputation for sleeping with other alphas and A's.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

LOL! So Paul is probably the Alpha who owns twenty husbandwifes? (I think Alex and Blane talked about that in the first chapter).

And hy's always busy with forcing himself on other Alphas and seducing thyre As? No wonder that his own husbandwifes are so effective killers! The poor things have only themselves to please one another. It reminds me of old Persian stories were the the women who lived in the enderun ( persian harem)were regarded as the most brutal beings on earth.

It's transmitted that they often tortured slaves to death out of pure boredom.

But what do you think about my scientific wish-wash. (Although, I might add, it's actually based on real science)?

[Ayato]

given the fact that in this world the genome was "just" cracked, the idea of coding a retro-virus to attack and destroy specific genetic anomalies is a while off even with the alphas involved. Blane was obviously dabbling in doing something of that sort, given the fact that hes miracle drug is actually a retro-virus. Sometimes while trying to create one thing, you discover another.

[Guest thatsnotcheese]

Thanks for explaining the deal made between Ezra and Paul! I find Paul's relationship with his own HWs fascinating... so he doesn't really sleep with them...

Curious about Paul's 'new toy', though considering what you said above about Paul sleeping around a lot and forcing himself on other alphas, this situation probably isn't uncommon for him.

[Ayato]

Paul has husbandwives, I'm getting the feeling these are like strays hi rescues, and possessions. The possessions can be used for anything. Toys are possessions and Paul likes to share hes toys. The toy situation isn't unknown to other alphas (Blane's never been to the club but know what happens) but is probably a little on the rare side. After all, if you premier a toy every other week, no one's going to really sit up and pay attention when it happens and Paul is probably showing off.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Sorry, wanted to write already yesterday, but my silly comp crashed again...
So, as I understood the situation with Paul and his husbandwifes, it's a bit like with a rich snob who owns a herd of fine racing horses and like to show them to other rich snobs - just to impress them. I think I get an idea now why Paul doesn't owns an A (surely he could afford to buy one) . An A would simply to precious for this kind of game - and probably not willing to take part in it.
I found the walkabout at the medical convention very interesting. For the first time we got to see these inferior Alphas Paul mentioned. Although I could help but wonder why snake-oil sellers are allowed at such an event :-) But I like Blane's opinion concerning this kind of medicine. I was once interested in it too but the more I learned about it, the more aware I became about it's limits and the cheating which goes with it.
So, if the Alpha society would be still intact, not humans, but Alphas like these would be servants in the dominant Alphas housholds? According to Paul, they would be, together with the Cs and Ds, ranking even under the Bs then?
Ah, and about Blane's drug: Exellent explanation!
And you left the cancer treatment for the future. Too late for Jaime, I think, but plan B might resque him ( Although I wouldn't use the blood if avoidable - samples of the affected organs are much easier to reconstruct - exept, of course. stemcells are available). In our real world they do it already with human skin and lately they even reconstructed a kidney.
I'm still breaking my head about Paul's (and maybe Abraham's) pheromone thing...Paul being more viscious than any other Alpha, his behaviour against his husbandwifes, his beauty and hmm, I can't help, but suddenly I have to think of hyenas...Am I dabbing in the right direction?

[Ayato]

I actually know very little about hyenas. I do know that some animals deem alpha by the pheromones they put off. Think... that guy in high school who everyone seemed to just want to sleep with, for no freaking reason at all. Pheromones play a large part in our world and we don't even realise it because all the communication is silent.

Do hyenas have alphas even? I should google them.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

You should look then for the spotted hyenas of Tanzania. But what you told me in our private conversation about female Alphas, together what you you wrote about Paul, remembered me a lotof what I know of hyenas.

Just to explain my guessing a bit more, concerning the spotted hyenas: You can hardly differ the females from the males (exept by their size - the female hyenas are bigger than the males, but well, Alphas are not hyenas).

But the behaviour of the female hyenas (more aggressive, more dominant) and the pheromone thing would fit perfectly. And you can hardly differ the genders by the genitals - they're looking about the same. But the female hyenas aren't hermaprhrodites, they have a fully functioning womb and a hormonal cycle like other mammals. But they don't have the usual female genitals.Means, the female hyenas receive and give birth to their youngs through their penis (it's often declared as an enlarged clitoris which isn't correct, because it's a fully functioning penis, complete with urethra, cavernous body and even a set of glands which look like testicles - of course they don't produce semen, but probably the lubrication needed for mating and giving birth).

I really don't know if you had something like this in mind.

It's just a thought I had.

[Ayato]

O.O

Nope, not what I had in mind at all. It happens sometimes, though, I write something and it ends up being like something I've never read before.

The alpha females, in my mind, had to be more dominating than the males because in this world females submit to males, it's a patriarchal society, just like ours. A female alpha walking into the room wouldn't send everyone skittering, but a male doing the same thing would. The females had to compensate for this by being absolutely vicious. It still wasn't, the world is moving away because they were female alphas, but instead that it was moving away because it was afraid of the crazy lady.

So long as it got the point across, I suppose. Once the female reputation was well built, the daughters born to the female alphas would have been better off. I think this vicious, dominating stereotype was why the female alphas were killed off in the West. If you need to control someone, take away the most dominating and then insert yourself as that person to the survivors. The men just... need a little nudge. Thy've been living without the females, without thyre own male leader, for some time and were confused as to what thy should do with themselves. The culture now allows everyone to survive and this means the more dominating alphas have thyre hands full trying to keep the stupid ones from getting themselves killed because the genetic pool is pretty limited as it is.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Haha, I think the Alpha females (if any of them still exists in your world) can deem themselves lucky that you didn't choose this option. Can't be really much fun to give birth this way. But zoology is an amazing science! Whenever you read a sci-fi or fantasy story and you think that the species invented by the author is impossibly weird, natur of our real world comes around and tops the story with an even weirder species....:-)

So, the intention of the regulars was to make the Alphas dependend on them by killing the female Alphas , so that the Alphas are forced to use regular females for breeding - provided by the allowance of the regulars...This can't be good for the genetic pool of the Alphas as you said already - although, hmm, I could think of a way to create new (true) female Alphas.

And being without a strong leader for such a long time, the Alpha society, who strongly depends on a strict hierarchy, would be really in deep trouble without people like Paul and Ezra. I really wonder which role Blane and Alex will play in the future...

[Ayato]

Alpha males don't need a female alpha to make a male alpha, just to make a female alpha. Female alphas used to enslave males to create more of themselves (daughters) with a very few strong males enslaving females to create daughters to be used to control the regular nobles who existed through history, struggling against the alphas.

I know of several ways to create a female alpha. Though most involve genetic alterations or straight out cloning, which is as illegal in this world as it is in the real world. Although cloning would require access to the genetic material of a female and I get the feeling alphas typically go for cremation. Leave nothing for regulars to dance on or your enemies anything to dig up and defile.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Oh, actual cloning wasn't what I had in mind. Cloning is a higly risky thing, because most of the clones (if they are born alive at all, which happens rarely enough) are short-lived and very sick due to the genetic failures which happen when copying a body.

I was thinking of taking a normal eggcell, remove it's genetical information and replace it with the genetical information of a "female" sperm. The rest would work like a normal in-vitro fertilization with the "female" sperms of another Alpha.

But well, my suggestions have become moot now as there are obviously still female Alphas around. And 'sniffing' Drake seems to suspect something. Hm, I wonder if the female gets him before anybody might ask him questions. Poor Drake with his low self-esteem would make a perfect slave for a female Alpha...

Oh, and about the genetic thing...Hm, I think the Alpha gene is dominant when connected to an Y-chromsome and recessive when it goes with an X-chromosome. So it would be practically impossible for a normal woman to give birth to a female Alpha. Means, only a female Alpha could give birth to a female Alpha. But what I wonder is: what if the spontanious mutation which produced the first Alpha not happened in only one individual but in multiple ones, female Alphas among them? Thinkable too that it were even siblings. This might be a bit of a shock for the Alpha society, but it could perhaps be the answer to Blane's question.:-))

[Ayato]

Even I'm not certain if there's a living female alpha, though I could very well seeing at least one family surviving into modern times. They would have to hunt their paternal lines carefully, if a male alpha got whiff of a female hi'd tell everyone. Of course, then the female alpha would also have her choice of the males because the males are very interested in bringing the females back.

I'm sure there were times when a male and female alpha would share a house for breeding purposes, which is no doubt why alphas place house and play nicely with other alphas without breaking one or the other. And being the alpha who had the female alpha and bred her to produce not only daughters but sons as well? That would be a rich alpha.

Recreating the original genetic combination, while it has occurred to me, the mathematical probability to me, from what I've been told of genetics, is slim to none. I realise that people can be born throughout the ages who look spot on like so and so way back when but I've not seen a genetic study of doppelgangers to see how close their genetic material truly is. I think in these cases it's more about wearing the same face, rather than being the same person.

As for the "it sort of... smells like a female..." comment from Blane, I've got to point out the fact that Paul said that Alex could very well present as an alpha when he breaks, even to other alphas. Females can have the G14 genetic marker, though it is very rare, and they are never handed over the alphas for breaking but the world is a terrible place. If a female with the G14 genetic marker broke in the right way, the debate then would be, would she smell like an alpha?

And if Alex breaks and presents more like an alpha, even to other alphas, does he become a hi or is he simply more special than the average husbandwife?

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

So you didn't had a female Alpha in mind but it was female G14 carrier, sneaking around and probably trying to get pregnant in a way nobody would notice? And she's broken...that probably means that her Alpha is dead. Maybe somebody discovered hes secret and killed him...

And if she broke in a way that she smells kind of alphalike, then I guess she's an equivalent to the A category of the companions.

About the breaking: My guess is that it means much more than simply to subdue someone. Blane said once that he could set Alex's inner clock and Alex mentioned , I think, that Blane was in control of his emotions. Means Blane has direct access to Alex's Brain. If hi wanted, hi could change his personality, level of intelligence (I guess Esra tried to do that with the D he mentioned) and if hi gains access to the pituitary gland too, he could take influence in Alex's sexual hormons - including the production of pheromones.

I have no idea how Blane could get this access , but I suppose that is the way Alphas make out of thyr A's a kind of secondary Alphas. Individuals which have all characteristics of an Alpha without carrying Alpha DNA. Under these circumstances, yes, I think Alex would smell like an Alpha.

What you said about female and male Alphas living together is quite interesting. Then somewhen in their early history there must have happened a drastic change. Perhaps the Alpha society changed into an highly agressive patriarchy so that living together for females and male wasn't any longer possible and the females changed into vicious loners which used their pheromones as a kind of weapon?

Obviously under certain circumstances even Alpha males can live peacefully together, so maybe thy haven't had been always that aggressive race thy became in later times? Hm, intriguing question! :-)

About recreating the original genetic combination, I agree, it would be hardly possible, especially because you'd need the pure mytochondrial DNA which would lead back to the first female Alpha. But to find such a "untainted" mytochondrial DNA would be practially immpossible since the male Alphas breeded only with regular women for generations.

And cloning wouldn't be an option either.

Maybe the genetical engineering I suggested would be a possibility to bring female Alphas back... If the genetic information of a "female" sperm is transplanted into a emptied eggcell, then the whole ting would behave like the eggcell of a female Alpha. In real life, scientists actually discuss this method. Among other things, it could give (in a more liberal future) male couples the chance to have biological children. Of course they'd need a surrogate mother, but genetically it would be the child of the couple.

[Ayato]

I don't believe any type of telepathy is possible in this world and the alphas don't necessarily have direct access to thyre companions' brains. The G14 marker does seem to enable alphas to act certain ways to bring about certain changes. Our lives actually turn on or off certain parts of our genetic code. Actually, that should be more of a question given your background. I'd heard that our lives can actually trigger certain genetic markers, depending on what's going on around us, environment and such. The idea of breaking has brought that idea to mind to me.

It also depends on the companion. Someone said that an alpha couldn't bring out what wasn't already there. Quinn was already a perfectionist, Robin self-harmed and Ezra took that and turned it outward.

With that in mind, it should be noted that Alex has never really given in to his abuser, he would submit for the time being but hand him a knife now and he'd just as likely put it between his father's ribs. If he had submitted, he would not be able to function in society at all and would live in pretty much constant fear, especially fear of Blane for having power over him.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Yes, I thought about this possibility, but usually events in life which actually change the brain in a physical sense are really extreme intense experiences to cause such effects. A (really sad) example is what happens to small children who were abused. Even if the head of the child wasn't actually hurt, MRI shows tiny scars inside the brain tissue. The emotional trauma this children experience is so intense that the brain is, how could I describe this? ...Well, one could say that the brain is 'overloaded' by the experience of the trauma, leaving tiny scars, comparable maybe to a fire scar after suffering an electric shock. But what happens there is so drastic that it didn't seem to me to fit to Blane's subtle and considerate proceeding, so I left it aside .

It would although fit to what Casey did to Alex, which marked the beginning of Alex's breaking...

Oh and about the subdue thing . . LOL, obviously I wrote faster than my brain could follow...So the next thought was there before I finished the first one, So what I actually wanted to write was :

"My guess is that it means much more than simply to subdue someone, like the companions of the lower categories or induce loyalty as in the As and Bs."

And to be loyal is of course a completely different thing than being subdued...Sorry. I think I have to discipline my brain now. :-)

And I agree: I think Alex would give in to no-one. Turn your back to him and your head will be smashed by a candleholder. :-) For someone who was abused so badly, he has an amazing psychological strength.

[Guest Avatar_Tingal]

Oh sorry again, forgot about the changing of the DNA. Yes, DNA can be changed due to enviromental factors, but usually this means that the DNA won't get enhanced, but damaged.

In people who survived a famine can the DNA change in a way that they inherit diabetes type 1 to the next generation. I might be wrong, but I didn't ever read of a positive change of the DNA due to extern influences.