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Is this a racist question?


Shinju

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i suspect that if you posted three random words in the right place, and claimed it was your fetish, nine months later, someone in Japan would claim to have cornered the market on the Rollerskating Puppy Island fetish.

Five months if one of the three words was already sexualized.

:rofl: very, very true....

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i suspect that if you posted three random words in the right place, and claimed it was your fetish, nine months later, someone in Japan would claim to have cornered the market on the Rollerskating Puppy Island fetish.

Five months if one of the three words was already sexualized.

And they'd be cosplaying it in Harajuka, and J-box would be selling the pantsu. :D

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As the mother of an autistic son, I'm put in mind of the Bruno Bettelheim theory that autism was caused by cold and undemonstrative parenting, which he termed "refrigerator mothering." It always struck me as utterly repugnant how the entire onus was placed squarely on the mother, when in my case, it is largely my husband who distances himself from our son.

Bettelheim's revolting theories have been largely discredited by, unsurprisingly, real science.

I think that’s just the type of hooky gender biased science that Shadowknight has been talking about. Kind of gross, I can’t believe people actually took him seriously.

You sound like a strong mother, I really admire that. Every child is a blessing, but I can only imagine what you have to go through, raising an autistic son.

You're being influenced by science in more ways than you think. Science gets thrown in as a justification for every assertion made, the problem is that usually it gets prefaced by "studies have shown..." or "experts say..." and people modulate their behaviour accordingly. If you consume any form of mass media at all, you've been exposed to this effect. And even if you haven't, the people you've interacted with have, or have interacted with those who have. The reason it's so pervasive and difficult to spot is precisely because it supports the ways "things have always been."

Actually, I feel that it is more mass media’s fault than science. It’s the tv, movies, commercials and books that have the characters that reinforce gender roles starting at a young age. Gender roles and gender identity start when a child is very young, too young to understand scientific studies.

However, one can't change what one isn't aware of. Awareness is key. And what's worse, one must never confuse awareness with acceptance, which is precisely what happens when you get told "women are like this and men are like that." It's all bullshit, if you'll pardon my French, but that's exactly what they want you to think.

Pardoned! Actually, I really felt the way you did, that men and women are essentially the same, up until a few years ago. What changed my mind was hearing the story of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer). In a nutshell, when he was a baby there was a freak circumcision accident and they ended up removing his penis. They took him to see psychologist John Money, who believed that gender identity was a learned behavior and not inborn. He recommended sexual reassignment surgery and the doctors removed his testes and his parents raised him as a girl. I remember in the news report I saw, David talked about how when he was a “little girl” he wanted to play with his brother’s toys but was given only girl toys and made to wear dresses even though he didn’t feel like a girl. He described himself during that time as very unhappy.

I believe this is the report I watched:

Aaaaaand there we go. That's exactly it. That is the type of thinking they want you to have. They want you to believe in predetermination, that the way you are (and the way everyone around you is) is set and cannot be changed, so that you don't upset the status quo.

They?

People can remake themselves at will, it just takes substantial effort and self-awareness. Oh, and a willingness to accept the ugly truths in ourselves, of course.

That’s exactly what I’m doing, accepting some of the ugly truths about myself and women in general and trying to change. If I find myself overwrought with girl feelings, I find it helpful to take a deep breath, remind myself that it’s natural and normal and tell myself I’m not going to fall prey to chick emotions. But I’m not going to go to the closet and burn all my skirts just so I can fit into an anti-stereotype, I can accept my differences from men and be okay with them.

I wish more men would do things like that, accepting stereotypes about themselves when they are true and trying to change. We still live, whether or not we like it, in a male dominated society. Can you imagine if one day almost every man in the world woke up and said, “Oh, my God. I fit into a gender stereotype in certain respects in my life and it isn’t good for society, I should try to change.”

No, that's what they want you to think. They want you to think that "it's just the way things are" so that you don't fight it or try to change it. Stereotypes are the tool of the patriarchy, and some people choose to constantly and unwaveringly reject them, rather than accept them with resignation.

From what you write it seems to me like you stereotype men, but refuse to stereotype women on the grounds that it would make women seem weak. “Men want to remain in power,” and references to what they want us to think and say, etc. I think those are all stereotypes. I mean, I do agree with many of the generalizations you make, in general terms of course. But I think it’s kind of like trying to prevent murder with the death penalty.

A needy man is going to be chastised by his peers because it's bad for him and because it might raise the idea that other men might be like that as well, and that's bad for them.

An excellent point, I think you just gave me a better understanding on what I didn’t understand before.

Yeah, "men don't behaving the way they're written" falls under "can't measure up to them", sorry if I was unclear.

My point is what is written isn’t based on reality. It’s impossible to measure up to something that isn’t based on reality. So if a woman expects a man to behave like a man in her romance novels, she is really being unfair. It would be like saying you or I can’t measure up to the characters in a porno or an erotic novel written by men.

Ugh, don't get me talking about the way female characters are depicted in the media. Another tool of conditioning, particularly when aimed at children and teenagers.

Errg! I know! It pisses me off to no end. We should start a thread on writing stronger female characters. People need to be enlightened about this matter.

That study is highly questionable, mainly because it suffers from clear gender bias.

I actually showed this article to my mom and so therefore revisited it with a more curious eye. I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with you, but I looked it up and a majority of the scientists on that team, including one of the two leaders, were women. If it is gender biased I think that’s really scary.

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I think that’s just the type of hooky gender biased science that Shadowknight has been talking about. Kind of gross, I can’t believe people actually took him seriously.

You sound like a strong mother, I really admire that. Every child is a blessing, but I can only imagine what you have to go through, raising an autistic son.

Indeed, that's what I mean when I talk about sensationalist science.

And knowing wench for a couple of years now (I forget how many... 2 or 3?) I can attest to the hard work and time she devotes to her children. The thought of anyone implying she's a bad parent makes my blood boil.

Actually, I feel that it is more mass media’s fault than science. It’s the tv, movies, commercials and books that have the characters that reinforce gender roles starting at a young age. Gender roles and gender identity start when a child is very young, too young to understand scientific studies.

But mass media need something to back up their statements in this era of cynicism and faithlessness. That support is science. Mass media is the mouth, but science is the man behind the curtain, and the patriatchy is the man behind the man behind the curtain.

Pardoned! Actually, I really felt the way you did, that men and women are essentially the same, up until a few years ago. What changed my mind was hearing the story of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia....ki/David_Reimer). In a nutshell, when he was a baby there was a freak circumcision accident and they ended up removing his penis. They took him to see psychologist John Money, who believed that gender identity was a learned behavior and not inborn. He recommended sexual reassignment surgery and the doctors removed his testes and his parents raised him as a girl. I remember in the news report I saw, David talked about how when he was a “little girl” he wanted to play with his brother’s toys but was given only girl toys and made to wear dresses even though he didn’t feel like a girl. He described himself during that time as very unhappy.

Well, obviously a sexual reassignment surgery is not going to work if hormones are not corrected! That child may have had sexual reassignment surgery, but it's not mentioned whether he was given hormonal treatment, so I think it's safe to assume that he wasn't. Without functioning testicles or ovaries, the only remaining source for his sexual hormones would be his adrenal glands, which secret low levels of androgens. A person who has their ovaries or testicles removed and is not given hormone therapy will invariably start feeling physiological changes that will make them self-identify with males. The age in the wikipedia article is also key: the "activation" of adrenal glands precede puberty by around 2 years, and that child reported started feeling male at around the ages of 9-11, which is roughly 2-3 years before puberty would hit him.

Gender is a complicated thing. The problem here is that we have associated some physiological things (the things that sexual hormones cause) with the entire baggage that comes with gender. Society makes up gender roles and the characteristics that each gender is supposed to have, and then it adds the physiological characteristics to the package so that you cannot escape it. Once the patriarchy has formed a social contract where one gender rules over the other, you cannot allow exceptions or deviations, or else the fundamental pillars of the scheme collapse.

They?

The patriarchy.

That’s exactly what I’m doing, accepting some of the ugly truths about myself and women in general and trying to change. If I find myself overwrought with girl feelings, I find it helpful to take a deep breath, remind myself that it’s natural and normal and tell myself I’m not going to fall prey to chick emotions. But I’m not going to go to the closet and burn all my skirts just so I can fit into an anti-stereotype, I can accept my differences from men and be okay with them.

I wish more men would do things like that, accepting stereotypes about themselves when they are true and trying to change. We still live, whether or not we like it, in a male dominated society. Can you imagine if one day almost every man in the world woke up and said, “Oh, my God. I fit into a gender stereotype in certain respects in my life and it isn’t good for society, I should try to change.”

The ugly truths are individual. If they happen to repeat in multiple people, that's the effect of a cause, not an ineluctable pattern. If you find those ugly truths in other women, it's because society has conditioned them to think like that, not because they are an inherent part of being female.

The reason why accepting stereotypes is ill-advised is because acceptance naturally leads to inaction. Sometimes it can serve as a springboard for change, sure, but if we speak in psychological terms, acceptance leads to inaction while rejection leads to action. Acceptance leads to a state of calmness and a tendency to leave things as they are, while rejection leads to stress and disquiet and a tendency to force change.

Exceptions might exist, but suggesting a course of action based on the exceptions and not on what the course of action actually tends to cause strikes me as unwise.

From what you write it seems to me like you stereotype men, but refuse to stereotype women on the grounds that it would make women seem weak. “Men want to remain in power,” and references to what they want us to think and say, etc. I think those are all stereotypes. I mean, I do agree with many of the generalizations you make, in general terms of course. But I think it’s kind of like trying to prevent murder with the death penalty.

I refuse to stereotype men either. When I speak about power and manipulation, I speak about the human condition. I would say the same thing about women if the gender positions were reversed. Humans are selfish creatures who desire power over others to improve their personal well-being and obtain their goals at the expense of others. Exceptions do exist, of course, but that's the general norm. If men are the ones who hold the majority of the power in social scenarios, I will refer to "men" rather than "the humans who hold power in social scenarios."

An excellent point, I think you just gave me a better understanding on what I didn’t understand before.

Thanks!

My point is what is written isn’t based on reality. It’s impossible to measure up to something that isn’t based on reality. So if a woman expects a man to behave like a man in her romance novels, she is really being unfair. It would be like saying you or I can’t measure up to the characters in a porno or an erotic novel written by men.

Um, yes, I am saying that we can't measure up to fantasies, because they are unreal. Porn is rooted in fantasy, not on reality. Even amateur porn is based on a certain fantasy ("This could be happening right next door!" i.e., the fantasy of realism), and that's the only criticism you can levy on female-oriented erotica because they idolise men. Male-oriented erotica demonises or denigrates women, and that's definitely a valid criticism to levy ON TOP of the fantasy aspect.

The reason I brought it up is because female-oriented erotica is not a perfect counterpart to the male equivalent because it doesn't put a woman in a position of superiority for her to denigrate a man and use him for her pleasure while he mewls and strokes her ego about how powerful she is. Female-oriented erotica, by synching up with male-oriented erotica perfectly, rather than being its opposite, continues to perpetuate the gender roles and stereotypes.

Errg! I know! It pisses me off to no end. We should start a thread on writing stronger female characters. People need to be enlightened about this matter.

Indeed!

I actually showed this article to my mom and so therefore revisited it with a more curious eye. I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with you, but I looked it up and a majority of the scientists on that team, including one of the two leaders, were women. If it is gender biased I think that’s really scary.

Do you want to know scary? I have read countless of stories written by female authors where rape is eroticised from the PoV of the victim.

Let that sink in for a while.

Edited by Shadowknight12
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