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Guest Agaib

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Guest Agaib

I'm really mostly posting this because it's an issue I dont know much about and haven't formed a complete opinion. Immigration has suddenly been launched into the spotlight of the issues in the Unites States. Everyone is pushing for this or that bill to be passed and made into law. So my question is, what is your opinion on the issue, and how did you come to that conclusion?

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Guest Melody Fate
I'm really mostly posting this because it's an issue I dont know much about and haven't formed a complete opinion. Immigration has suddenly been launched into the spotlight of the issues in the Unites States. Everyone is pushing for this or that bill to be passed and made into law. So my question is, what is your opinion on the issue, and how did you come to that conclusion?

I'm a bit of a bitch on this point, I admit it.

I don't think that illegal immigrants should get government benifits, their children educated, etc. If you want all the benifits of being a resident of the USA, then become a resident.

I also believe we in the USA need to get off the stick and make English the official language and expect immigrants to learn it, and not to give them benifits because they don't know how to speak it. The first year you're in this country? Yes, but you should know it after a year.

I come from people who came to the United States for a better life. When they got here, they worked their asses off. They loved the USA, even though no one met them at the boat and said, "Aww, you poor person who cannot speak our language. Here is an apartment. Here is a job. Here are some food stamps!"

I don't begrudge people who want to come to the USA for a better life. I do begrudge people who come here and immedietly piss and moan that the US has no right to "Americanize" them. We have no right to teach their children English, we have no right to expect them adapt to our customs and culture.

I'm tired of the Mexicans around here that tell me for hours and hours about how cruel the USA is, how we're all greedy, selfish, miserable people and how everyone in Mexico are wonderful, kind, beautiful people. How wonderful life is in Mexico. How they would never have to put up with the crap they put up with in the USA. I want to know, if life was such a bowl of cherries in Mexico and Cuba, why the hell did they move here?

I'm not saying all Mexican / Cuban immigrants are like that. I know quite a few who love living in the USA. I know some that are fanatical in the other direction, hating their country of birth and thinking the USA is the only way. I know others who strike a balance. They realize they came to the USA for a better life and they strive for that, while stilll retaining their culture. But they speak English. They don't scream and demand "Spanish speaking only" schools for their children. They don't have a heart attack because school cafe don't serve authentic Mexican/Cuban food.

I believe the first thing the USA needs to do is to take better care of their own. Once we do that, then we can open our doors to others. But when we do that, I think we have the right to expect people will do their best to try to adapt to life in this country. I'm not saying they have to give up their culture, their beliefs, but I expect them to learn English and I expect them to at least respect this country.

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Guest SweetMisery1

Well... I think that the process of becoming legal should be changed. If it is that hard for an innocent family who is dirt poor to come into a country that can help us then something is wrong.

Now, I'm not saying it should be easier and then let the floodgate open while terrorists and others ould expoit this, but there is a reason this is happening.

In a news report on 60minutes, the man being interviewed said that the state of (I think it was Nevada) invited government officials to try to push out the illegal immigrants. They were able t do so, but when the cattle industry and others fell, Nevada kindly asked the government to leave. This here show that we have the ability to make them leave, but we certinly can't do it. Making the immigrants leave almost shattered Nevada's economy.

An expensive wall isn't going to keep people out so lets stop wasting money on that. Maybe if we Americans could get off our lazy asses and get jobs, not the high class CEO positions that are going to legal immigrants, but the labor jobs that are avaiable that the illegal immigrants are taking, maybe we'll stop bitching about unemployment and there will be lss jobs for them.

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I think that it has to do with the terrorism that ever so blatantly let its presence be felt in the Americas. It did the job, and spread fear. Now we question everything and everybody. Next step: a state of martial law. It is only natural and logical. Gone are the days when we could trust our fellow man. Now the innocent must bear the burden for the guilty. So it has been, so it is and so will it be.

But I too, am in the dark about what exactly the bill is and its wording and how it changes the previous law, or how the present law is being upheld.

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Guest Agaib

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here StoryJunkie. Do you beleive that martial law is the right thing to do? Or just the next step simply because of the way people are?

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Guest Alien Pirate Pixagi

Okay, this is an issue that had my school up in arms for a while. Most of the kids in my school are immigrants or the children of immigrants (Since I live in NYC, that is to be expected). All these people staged this huge protest and all this junk and I think it's stupid. This one girl actually tried to tell me that immigrants weren't criminals (along with telling me this bill would MAKE them criminals).

FACT: ILLEGAL Immigrants are called as such for a REASON! This law has been around for AGES! If you are not registered as a citizen of the USA, Live here, and aren't on some sort of Visa, the law says YOU DON'T BELONG HERE. This new bill doesn't CHANGE the old law in anyway, it just ENFORCES it.

This is getting insane. We are in TRILLIONS of dollars in debt and are paying for the education, welfare and livelyhoods of people who are NOT paying taxes. We have SO MANY homeless and welfare cases that are legal citizens and can't get jobs because they go to Illegal Aliens for less then minimum wage and off the books. This is utter bullshit and needs to be fixed.

Also, these people are asking for immediate citizenship. Well what the fuck? That's spitting in all of the faces of all the people who worked to get their citizenship through the beauracracy that is immigration. Given, the innigration laws are insane and need to be fixed, but don't get rid of them all together. If something happens to your comps moniter you're not going to scrap the entire thing! You either get the moniter fixed or get a new one.

Now, I'd like everyone here to remember something. I am not racist or prejudiced in any way against anyone. I have, actually, a lot of close friends who are illegal immigrants and would do anything to help them get their citizenship, but they are using funding made for taxpayers, not immigrants. This is not only a matter of the law, but a matter of what's right.

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Guest SweetMisery1

I completely agree. I think the main thing is that America does not need to send back these people for it to be solved. These people need to be registered under American law and pay taxes and such for it to work

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Guest Soulsearcher

Immigration laws DO need to be overhauled. My husband is Canadian and let me tell you, getting his permanent resident status was a PAIN. We had to go to the immigration offices on four seperate occassions, spent LOTS of money on filing fees and such, and got asked really silly questions {"Are you or have you been a member of a terrorist organization?"} If we had such a hard time I don't even want to think about the experiences others have had.

The whole illegal immigration thing is another ball of wax which is so complex.

Anyway, that's just a bit of a view on what someone who's been through immigration went through.

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Heh heh, you should hear my mom talk about this issue. Pisses her off to no end. I have to say my opinion on this might be slightly biased because I live in Miami, a place with A LOT of immigrants, and I can't stand the people, okay maybe I should be a bit more fair and say it isn't really the immigrants but mainly the cubans. They are the hardest people to deal with, biggest annoying hypocritical assholes I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. But of course, they aren't illegal because we've changed the laws here to make things too easy for them to get in. They want everybody to think what they think and God Forbid anyone express an opinion they don't like. Like instance recently they decided they wanted to have a book banned from schools because they didn't think it portrayed Cuba in a negative enough light. And so the school board had to vote on it, one of the school board members said he was actually getting threatening emails and he truly felt himself and his family were all in danger. Over a stupid book. Now I find it funny that they want us to condemn Castro for supposedly not giving them any freedom of speech yet here they are trying to take away ours because it doesn't agree with what they think should be said. Ugh, I can't stand Cubans.

But I guess all of that is leading up to me saying that I don't think we should make it any easier for them to come in or to reward them for breaking the law. I'm yet another person who doesn't know the exact wording, but from the bit I've heard, I gather that part of the plan is to take the illegal citizens who are here now and have been here and just make them legal. And I don't think that's right especially when there are those who didn't break the law and who did go through the process and did things the right way. That's like saying to everybody who might want to come here, don't bother it's okay. You can come here anyway you want and it's fine, don't bother actually trying to do things the legal way because it's basically a waste of time since you can just do things the illegal way.

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Guest Rockin

This is a really complex thing...

No matter how tight the border is, illegal immigrants will find other ways to get to the US. I read about this in a article once and he said 'Even though the border has become tighter, illegal mexicans will find other ways to get in the US. They might have to walk longer paths, go to some hard to reach roads, but they will try.' They're right, at to some degree.

I only have one question: why are they crossing the US illegally? Can't they go in just like normal immigration? I know I sound like I don't watch the news much, but I'm just curious.

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Guest Agaib

I think most people wont go through the proper immigration process for many reasons. If they're from a state that doesn't allow it citizens to simply leave, then there's no way they can get in legally. The process of coming in legally can be an expensive one also and nearly all of these people are dirt poor.

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Guest Soulsearcher

Actually getting in legally is very difficult if you're poor. In order to be here you need to have family that's been a citizen for a certain length of time, be needing asylum, or have a skill that's needed. Otherwise, good luck getting in. Plus, even if you do have the ability to get in legally, it takes time. Most illegals don't want to wait to work. They just want to come over here and work. I'm not saying all illegal immigrants are hard working and want to be contributing members of American society. As bookworm and others mentioned, there are immigrants who come here with no intention of actually aclimating to American society. Sad, but true.

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Guest Melody Fate

Ironically, someone posted this to a newsgroup I frequent recently:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S.  into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

   

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws.  I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over?  Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1.  Free medical care for my entire family.

2.  English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3.  All government forms need to be printed in English.

4.  I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5.  Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6.  I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7.  Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8.  I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9.  I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers

speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor or tax laws.

13.  Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place

on the economy.

   

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any rouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

As much as it shames me to admit it, while parts of it are whacked out, I found myself agreeing with way too much of it.

In truth, I really don't mind the idea of assisting people who want to come to this country. I'm sure my great grandparents would have loved a little help in that department. However, I do resent that we give help and give help and in return I feel like they're spitting in our face.

I understand the desire to retain your culture. I would never tell someone what holidays to celebrate. However, when you move to another country, it's assumed there are issues in the country you are trying to get away from, be it lack of jobs, poor living conditions, etc. Is it really right to come here with an attitude that you are allowed to live in a self-isolated bubble where nothing of this countries ways or culture is allowed to touch you and yours?

I grew up in an area where we just didn't see any immigrants. Back then, I would have argued that we treated immigrants like crap, and that most of them were wonderful people who were being squashed on by us.

Now I live in an area where they're much more common and my liberal attitude has faded a bit, because I've seen too many examples of, "Give us everything. C'mon, give us everything. Jobs, money, apartments, give our children education, give us clothing, gimmie, gimmie gimmie. In return? I spit on this country. I spit on your ideals. I hate your ways, I hate your customs."

I've heard immigrants who've become citizens bitch that their kids who joined the services to get money for college, should be exempt from having to fight in the war, that they only signed on for the college money, is it fair to expect them to die for this country?

Yes it is. If you want to live here, you have to take the good and the bad. Sadly, I see too many peole wanting only the good and not willing to consider that they might have to deal with some of the bad too. Immigrants shouldn't have to fight in wars, even if they joined the military! Nope, only people who are born in the USA and who's parents were born in the USA should have to die for the country!

I understand this may not represent the majority of immigrants who have become US citizens. It may only be a small few, but at least where I am, I see the small few, way too often.

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  • 3 weeks later...
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here StoryJunkie. Do you beleive that martial law is the right thing to do? Or just the next step simply because of the way people are?

You know, I forgot that I posted a comment here. Sorry for the late reply. I think that the "next step" being martial law is simply the way things historically have gone, and will probably go.

I do believe the immigration laws have to be looked at from both sides, considering the general atmosphere of world politics. The "world's longest undefended border" has just been challenged these past few years. Canada has been used by criminals the world over as a means of entering the US, and I feel that even though many innocent people will suffer, in the long run, if it will save a few thousand lives in the long run, it's worth it (to crack down on illegal immigrants).

We live a lifestyle on this continent that is the envy of the entire world. We have money in our bank accounts. We have money to buy food with. 80% of the world does not. We live in a very priveledged society, and to assume that everyone else is okay with that is to take for granted the rights we enjoy and the people who died for it.

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Guest Mike256bit
Ugh, I can't stand Cubans.

Wow. That's about as clear-cut as you can get.

You know, maybe if the US didn't have illegal sanctions in place for Cuba, they wouldn't be having such a drastic humanitarian issue. Oh, wait, that's Iraq. Oh, wait, that's Venezuela. Oh, wait, it's all three.

Our adminitration breaks international law and we wonder why people are bitching. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me.

Alternatively, I do agree that illegal immigrants need the boot. Moreover, companies that hire illegal immigrants need to be stopped from hiring illegal immigrants. While a large part of illegal immigrants do work for, say, mom and pop stores, there is another large portion that get paid under the table at national corporate chain stores. They're the ones that need to be told to stop conductiong illegal business. The ironic problem is that the government is in the pocket of big business, so fat chance on that happening.

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Guest Adara

This is quite a delicate issue. Considering that many illegal immigrants get treated differently. The treatment you receive depends on the country you illegally immigrated from. Cuban immigrants are treated with more care than lets say MEXICAN immigrants.

This whole subject about immigration was brought up because of 9/11, we all agree on that. Is it me, or did those terrorists come in through CANADA. They came in LEGALLY. They had visas arrive to their address once they'd already crashed into the WTC. As far as the terrorism card may frighten us; it is shit when it comes to this. They immigrated the right way, yet they still caused us harm.

Now, illegal immigrants from lets say, Latin America in general, well, I'm split on this subject. My parents immigrated ILLEGAL back in the sixties, worked VERY hard, eventually got their residency, my mother eventually became a U.S. Citizen. What I find funny is, that most of your ideas would have denied me the education simply because MY PARENTS did something illegal? Should we all be crusified for our parent's mistakes? IF so, DAMN, many of us would not be here as it were.

I've come across many Mexicans, (I'm Mexican-American, or whatever I am this week....Latina, whatever! tongue.gif ) who while drinking the wine from the fruit of their labor in the U.S. still have the GALL to talk shit about the country who is making it possible for their families back in Mexico to eat. My parents are very proud U.S Residents and defend the country's interest above Mexico's, simply because the U.S. made it possible for their family to prosper.

I'm not saying we should all be politically correct, but lets remember we're dealing with people, not numbers, or whatever bullshit they're trying to pass by our eyes.

As far as the deficit, that was there long before the immigration problems started. AND Let us admit to ourselves that this war, was NOT helping. The U.S. lends out a LOT of money to foreign countries, perhaps we should stop being so nice to THEM and get our money back. Of course, that won't happen, because money buys political influence.

Let me tell you guys, I'm currently living in Canada, my husband is Canadian, and well, we thought it would be much easier for us to make a living up here. This country is far more screwed up than you all think the U.S. laws might be. At least down there a decent living can be made for anyone who works hard for it. Up here, even if you have the ambition, you can't find work, you're better off on welfare. You see Doctors working as Taxi cabbies in order to provide for their families.

Despite the problems, I think that rather than look at this with a cynical eye, we should at least try to solve the problem to better the country as a whole.

P.S. For that Quote about immigrating to Mexico, *chuckles* trust me, I live in Los Angeles. Mexican people celebrate the fourth of July with just as much fervor as they do September Sixteenth, which by the way, is Mexico's independence day. It is wise to educate oneself in the culture of different countries and their ideals on America before saying something strickly out of news bits and hearsay. After all, whether most of you like it or not, America was made of immigrants, at one point the Chinese, the Irish, were seen as the Mexicans and Cubans are seen now.

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Guest SweetMisery1

Someone who I am too lazyto quote stated that companies should just stop hiring illegal immigrants...

What might you suggest to stop that? Companies benefit by hiring people that will work for as little as possible. Check out the Grapes of Wrath

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Guest Adara

I know probably next to nothing regarding companies of that magnitude, I only work for 'em. tongue.gif Anyone with any business know how know what could POSSIBLY be done about that kinda stuff?

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Guest Melody Fate
What I find funny is, that most of your ideas would have denied me the education simply because MY PARENTS did something illegal? Should we all be crusified for our parent's mistakes?

Actually, the last I checked, if you were born in this country, you're a citizen and therefore, are entitled to be educated. In fact, that was one of the big issues in the '70s, pregnant women were doing whatever they could to get into the USA and have their babies, because once they did, the babies were US citizens. Their belief was that because their children were US citizens, that the parents should be able to live in the US and collect assistance because of their child.

For the most part, I believe that if a child is born in the USA, then the child is a citizen and even if the parents aren't, if they want the child to have a US education, then yes, the child is entitled and in most cases, if that means we have to help the parents as well, then we should do it. Even if you want to take the cold, hard, attitude, raising a child in a home with a parent is usually cheaper then raising a child in an institutional environment, so economically, it makes sense if we have to support the child that it would be more cost effective to support a parent as well. And, with some help, a parent could very well get a job that will help to support a child. A child raised in an institution is pretty much on their own in that department, everything will always have to be provided to him/her until the day he/she is an adult. However, that shouldn't mean that the child is entitled to a completely different education than other children because he or she needs to be taught only in the language and customs of the parents country.

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Guest Adara

I come from a 99% hispanic community, and I must say I've never seen or heard of any classes which taught only in Spanish. I knew of ESL classes, (English as a Second Language) which used SOME Spanish, but mostly English to teach those who were immigrants to the country.

I've seen many hispanic parents push for their children to know English better than their native tongue. I myself was brought up with Spanish, because my parents knew very little English when I was born in the 80's. Now I find myself speaking with my mother in English, just as I write to you now, and she understands every word of it.

But I digress, tongue.gif Most parents don't complain to the school board about having them teach their children of our heritage. There is a handful of parents who think that everything should be handed to them, AND their child, but I think that can go across the board, regardless of what their origins. Most schools CHOSE to educated their hispanic community of the significance of let's say, Cinco de Mayo.

I don't know if any of you know the history behind it, but it isn't about some big party. It is to celebrate how despite the poverty of our ancestors, we managed to fight back the French Army with pitch forks and rocks, and thus maintaing the "Spanish" influence in Mexico. A very little amount of people truly know that had that small town of Puebla not defeated them, the French meant to invade the US through Mexico.

We celebrate holidays such as these because they have direct affect to this country literally, or through its people. I know about US History, just as I know about my Mexican culture. In my view, one cannot exist without the other for me. As I am an American Citizen, and love this country with all my heart, does that not give me the right to say, "Yeah, I wouldn't mind Spanish being a secondary language in the country?" Canada has two...why can't we as well?

Many times it comes down to Tolerance, finding out ways of dealing with our problems together is what I think will get us out of this mess. It is much more logical than pointing a finger at one another because we can't seem to find another solution. Does anyone else see how this subject seems to repeat itself? As I said in my previous post, it happened with the African American community, it happened with the Irish, with the Chinese, must we continue to go over old ground rather than seeing the positive affect these cultures have on our society?

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Guest Melody Fate

Again, I don't think anyone should give up their heritage because they migrate to the USA. I actually think it's a shame that most of us who were born in the USA come from immigrants who did forsake their heritage in order to become "American" I think we lost something special.

That being said, I also believe that when you move to this country, you can't raise your children in a bubble that excludes every American influence. You can't come here expecting the American Dream, but only the parts that suit you.

Yes, schools may be bilingual, but there are people who want nothing but [insert language of choice] schools. That's what I feel is wrong. If you want your child to know their native language, that's wonderful, more power to you, but they should also know English. Yes, that's right, I spoke the evil word, "English." Yes, they should know about the Holidays of their native country, they should celibrate them too, but it isn't a crime for them to know that Thanksgiving exists too. Or the Fourth of July. No, they don't have to celibrate those Holidays, but they shouldn't get upset because schools are going to talk about them.

I don't have any objections to people who want to embrace both worlds. I do have a problem with those who insult this country, who spit on those of us who happened to have parents who were born here, who don't want their children to learn anything of the USA or salute the USA flag in school. If you really hate this country so much that you don't want to deal with the people, deal with the culture, then why be here?

As for the "Why not Spanish and English?" Well, I'd be more open to that if it meant that either those of us who couldn't speak the other got benifits or no one did. As it is, being unable to speak English can get you benifits in this country. If this country decides that we have two "national languages" I don't want to see people who speak only Spanish given special privileges, while those who only speak English are just discarded. If they're going to give free English lessons to Spanish speaking people, they'd better give free Spanish classes to English speaking people.

The other problem with that is that we don't just have people who speak Spanish. My city has a very high Asian population and a significant African population. (And no, I'm not talking about African-American, blah blah blah, I'm talking about people who have immigrated here from Africa.) I'm sure they would love to see their languages be the "second language" of the United States. Why should Spanish be and not theirs?

As it is, we have no offical "National language" in this country and for those who don't speak English, that isn't bad, and actually can be rather nice for them. The other day I was at the DVM. Before me was a young Asian man who spoke no English. When the clerk was unable to help him, after trying for almost an hour, he had to call the office in the state capital, and request they send up someone to interpret for this young man. When it was my turn, I told the clerk I thought that was nice that someone was willing to come up and help out. I found out that "Help" will cost the State about 200 dollars. Why? Because we don't have an "official language" so we have to provide translation for all government services. So no, we're not leaving everyone who migrates to the USA and doesn't understand English in the dark. In fact, it's easier for someone who doesn't speak English to get government services to translate for him, than it is for someone who was born here, but is deaf to get someone to translate for them.

If the only people who ever came to this country from another only spoke Spanish, then I'd agree with you, we should recognize both. But we open our doors to several countries. Which language deserve to be considered a national language and why?

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Guest kimbop

Immigration...... what an interesting topic. I'm completely jaded as it is so I find immigration laws to be completely full of bs.

First of all, aren't we all illegal immigrants????????

The Europeans came into this country and seized it with their muskets and bayonets. According to the European cultures and customs, that is a fair means to "conquer" a land and "rightfully" make it theirs. The indigenious people have been slaughtered, tricked or forced to be what they are now. If they had a choice, I'm sure they would sit back and laugh at all the news bombarding the country about Mexicans who are crossing the borders illegally especially when some of the ancestors of these Mexicans were considered the native people of southwest United States.

Now that we have a "proper" and "established" sovereignty, should these people be considered criminals? Technically, yes, they are. Stronger borders are required to maintain what has been established in these past few hundred years. Certain laws have been enacted for a reason - which is to maintain the Europeanized standard of government and society. It's not necessarily bad since many have reaped upon this idea, but somehow it doesn't seem so right does it.

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Interesting point kimbop, and very sobering. The natives did not think the land "belonged" to them, so it was easy to "take". The concept of property was foriegn to them (as far as I can recall from the history class of long ago) The Europeans that claimed the land mostly believed that you could own a lot of stuff, even other people. They came from a culture so structured, that people were pressed to death for using coal instead of wood in their cooking fires. They were punished if one guild knitted a different style of argyle sock! There were dyers that used colors only for certain nobles, and were forbidden to allow anyone else to use that color. Talk about east meeting west. The division of property, the division of land, the avarice, the blatant hatred, the filth people lived in is absolutely unimaginable to us these days. No sewer systems, no running water, horseshit everywhere, cholera, the plague, lack of schools. Its amazing our society has advanced to this stage. I'm kind of agog as to where this is all going....

as for dual languages, the cost of putting two languages on a stop sign is actually a pretty big cost. I think the French stop signs end in Manitoba. From Saskatchewan on, its all English. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Then again, Switzerland has 4 official languages. French, Austrian (German) and Flemish (I think) and Swiss. (Some kind of indiscernable gibberish, I'm told.) biggrin.gif

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